What's the point of the 11 times table?

[V8 Fettler]

turbobloke said:

marshalla said:

spikeyhead said:

Randy Winkman said:

It's only partially related, but do folk know the explanation of why things have been done in 12s, rather than 10s? I'm told it comes from market traders because you can divide a dozen in halves, thirds, quarters or sixths and end up with whole numbers.

It's mostly relating to how well things fit in boxes. It's far easier to build a box to hold 12 jars well than 10

More likely because 12 is the smallest number to have a relatively large number of factors (1,2,3,4,6) so there are a lot of useful fractions available, which can be expressed as integers. - half of 12 is 6, quarter of 12 is 3 etc.

There's also the point that using one hand only it's possible to count to 12 using the thumb to point to the three finger segments on each of four fingers in turn.

And there are 12 lunar cycles in one year, so while that's primarily relevant to months it may influence choice in other areas.

How else can you create a gross of any item? Stands to reason.

[Thorodin]

Times tables are not just for multiplication. They are also just as useful for division, including 11's. Knowing the tables of yore gives instant resolution of math problems because you can effectively estimate and by some magical trick of the mind get the right answer. It enables the mind to jump ahead of the basic hurdles directly to the nub - much quicker. In a similar way, those who can remember dozens of numbers seen only once have developed the ability to another level.

[Hooli]

TorqueVR said:

The issue here is not the 11 times table, but the extent to which out education system has gone so badly wrong. The education establishment simply sets itself too low a standard and then fails to achieve it.

Hear hear.

[FredClogs]

Hooli said:

TorqueVR said:

The issue here is not the 11 times table, but the extent to which out education system has gone so badly wrong. The education establishment simply sets itself too low a standard and then fails to achieve it.

Hear hear.

Indeed, we should be aiming for the 13 times table. It's one more you see so must be better.

[turbobloke]

FredClogs said:

Hooli said:

TorqueVR said:

The issue here is not the 11 times table, but the extent to which out education system has gone so badly wrong. The education establishment simply sets itself too low a standard and then fails to achieve it.

Hear hear.

Indeed, we should be aiming for the 13 times table. It's one more you see so must be better.

Only in America

[Hooli]

FredClogs said:

Hooli said:

TorqueVR said:

The issue here is not the 11 times table, but the extent to which out education system has gone so badly wrong. The education establishment simply sets itself too low a standard and then fails to achieve it.

Hear hear.

Indeed, we should be aiming for the 13 times table. It's one more you see so must be better.

With a lot of the creatures that infest our schools these days, we should aim for the 1 times table tbh. Doesn't help that most of the thick kids I knew at school went into teaching...

[PoleDriver]

I do worry about the reliance of calculators in schools.
Yes, if you press the right buttons you get the right answer but we are producing a generation of people who do not have a clue about what is actually happening to the numbers! Without this basic knowledge people will have no chance when it comes to studying scientific subjects.

Example... I bought two items in a shop, one costing £2.20 the other costing £1.00. I had the correct money and was in a hurry to catch a train but had to wait until the cashier had used the till to add up the two items!

[RYH64E]

PoleDriver said:

I do worry about the reliance of calculators in schools.
Yes, if you press the right buttons you get the right answer but we are producing a generation of people who do not have a clue about what is actually happening to the numbers! Without this basic knowledge people will have no chance when it comes to studying scientific subjects.

Example... I bought two items in a shop, one costing £2.20 the other costing £1.00. I had the correct money and was in a hurry to catch a train but had to wait until the cashier had used the till to add up the two items!

I'm 51 and I had a calculator when I was at school, it's nothing new.

You can't generalise about a whole generation, my teenage children both know their tables and have done since an early age. My son is two years younger than his sister, he picked up his tables when she was learning hers at school, it was a bit surreal listening to him answering when we helped his sister practice, we'd ask her what 7 8s were and this 5 year old voice would shout back 56. Both my kids are good at maths and have a solid understanding of the fundamentals, they'll have no problem studying whatever they choose at university.

[turbobloke]

RYH64E said:

PoleDriver said:

I do worry about the reliance of calculators in schools.
Yes, if you press the right buttons you get the right answer but we are producing a generation of people who do not have a clue about what is actually happening to the numbers! Without this basic knowledge people will have no chance when it comes to studying scientific subjects.

Example... I bought two items in a shop, one costing £2.20 the other costing £1.00. I had the correct money and was in a hurry to catch a train but had to wait until the cashier had used the till to add up the two items!

I'm 51 and I had a calculator when I was at school, it's nothing new.

You can't generalise about a whole generation, my teenage children both know their tables and have done since an early age. My son is two years younger than his sister, he picked up his tables when she was learning hers at school, it was a bit surreal listening to him answering when we helped his sister practice, we'd ask her what 7 8s were and this 5 year old voice would shout back 56. Both my kids are good at maths and have a solid understanding of the fundamentals, they'll have no problem studying whatever they choose at university.

If they're really any good at maths, as opposed to arithmetic, they'll walk into a lecturer's job at uni if they want one. The pay's crap the politics are dripping to the left and the prospects will be pisspoor but they might like it all the same

tolerating decades of abysmal maths at school level has its consequences

[RYH64E]

turbobloke said:

If they're really any good at maths, as opposed to arithmetic, they'll walk into a lecturer's job at uni if they want one. The pay's crap the politics are dripping to the left and the prospects will be pisspoor but they might like it all the same

tolerating decades of abysmal maths at school level has its consequences

Maths and arithmetic, the one being a subset of the other. My daughter got a slightly disappointing 88% in her GCSE Maths, but she did sit it a year early and I fully expect my son to do better, high 90s would be acceptable from him. A future in the public sector is unlikely, although my daughter is considering studying medicine so who knows.

The point being that poor maths (and arithmetic) skills are not universal among the youth of today, calculators haven't destroyed the ability to do mental arithmetic, and not all schools neglect the subject (although paying a school upwards of £1k per child per month does help...). Parental expectation and support is a key determinant of a child's success in maths/arithmetic, I've always helped my kids with their maths and wouldn't accept anything less than the highest standards of teaching from their school (state primary and private secondary). I'm not a huge fan of state education, but it is possible to get an excellent education at pretty much every state secondary if the motivation is there, as evidenced by the success of many young children from immigrant families. White working class boys are a very badly performing group, but that says more about the attitudes of their parents than anything else.

Edited by RYH64E on Tuesday 3rd February 14:51

[FredClogs]

There should be a button to automatically report a post to the cringe thread.

[Derek Smith]

LordGrover said:

As most kids in the sixties we learnt the times tables up to twelve. Certainly did no harm.

I was born in 1946.

I went to a joyless, in the main, primary school that was run on presbyterian methods. See a smile, slap it down. By the age of 8 everyone had to know their tables. Yet there were a number of kids in my class who struggled even at the age of 11. The idea of every kid knowing their tables in the good old days is false.

My brother went to a comprehensive school and his first week there was a series of tests, one of which was arithmetic. He got high marks and was streamed, although in the main the test consisted of simple addition division and multiplication.

I'm not so sure that there is such a vast difference between now and then.

[WinstonWolf]

FredClogs said:

There should be a button to automatically report a post to the cringe thread.

You'd find most instances linked back to you...