should us smokers really be taxed so much
Discussion
bad company said:
You have some points there. Clearly there are several causes for pubs to close and the smoking ban is one of them.
Perhaps we should have a separate thread on the demise of the Great British Pub.
When I was a lad we went to the pub to drink, fast forward 30 years and most people I know go to the pub to eat, and have a pint whilst you're there. Maybe that's more of a feature of the pubs I frequent out here in the sticks, but as far as I'm aware food is a big part of the turnover for most pubs nowadays. If you're going to a pub for lunch or dinner the last thing you want is someone at an adjoining table lighting up a cigarette.Perhaps we should have a separate thread on the demise of the Great British Pub.
cardigankid said:
I'll rephrase that.
Reducing the drink driving limit effectively to zero has hit some pubs in Scotland, as the original drink driving rules previously closed a lot of country pubs and restaurants. I could argue that the majority of sensible drinkers were penalised for the sins of a few irresponsible ones, however, I believe that we all accept that driving while under the influence of either drugs or alcohol is wrong - so it had to happen.
I'm not sure that it is true to say that pubs are an endangered species - plenty more seem to open, however there are a range of reasons why some may shut. Tied pubs may not be economical. Some pubs price themselves out of a market where originally, there was no such thing as off-sales. Some pubs, particularly in Scotland, are simply crap. Some have not moved forward from the era where you have to fight your way to the bar, spend ten minutes waving twenties under the noses of bar staff who are ignoring you, then stand in a crush drinking a pint. That is a bygone era, its not pleasant and I predict that few people will want to do it in future. In Germany, you sit down and someone serves you. That is civilised.
You're right, they are more civilised in Germany. Last time I was ther, the smoking ban was ignored and ashtrays were put out. Much better.Reducing the drink driving limit effectively to zero has hit some pubs in Scotland, as the original drink driving rules previously closed a lot of country pubs and restaurants. I could argue that the majority of sensible drinkers were penalised for the sins of a few irresponsible ones, however, I believe that we all accept that driving while under the influence of either drugs or alcohol is wrong - so it had to happen.
I'm not sure that it is true to say that pubs are an endangered species - plenty more seem to open, however there are a range of reasons why some may shut. Tied pubs may not be economical. Some pubs price themselves out of a market where originally, there was no such thing as off-sales. Some pubs, particularly in Scotland, are simply crap. Some have not moved forward from the era where you have to fight your way to the bar, spend ten minutes waving twenties under the noses of bar staff who are ignoring you, then stand in a crush drinking a pint. That is a bygone era, its not pleasant and I predict that few people will want to do it in future. In Germany, you sit down and someone serves you. That is civilised.
Edited by cardigankid on Monday 9th February 17:29
bodhi said:
cardigankid said:
I'll rephrase that.
Reducing the drink driving limit effectively to zero has hit some pubs in Scotland, as the original drink driving rules previously closed a lot of country pubs and restaurants. I could argue that the majority of sensible drinkers were penalised for the sins of a few irresponsible ones, however, I believe that we all accept that driving while under the influence of either drugs or alcohol is wrong - so it had to happen.
I'm not sure that it is true to say that pubs are an endangered species - plenty more seem to open, however there are a range of reasons why some may shut. Tied pubs may not be economical. Some pubs price themselves out of a market where originally, there was no such thing as off-sales. Some pubs, particularly in Scotland, are simply crap. Some have not moved forward from the era where you have to fight your way to the bar, spend ten minutes waving twenties under the noses of bar staff who are ignoring you, then stand in a crush drinking a pint. That is a bygone era, its not pleasant and I predict that few people will want to do it in future. In Germany, you sit down and someone serves you. That is civilised.
You're right, they are more civilised in Germany. Last time I was ther, the smoking ban was ignored and ashtrays were put out. Much better.Reducing the drink driving limit effectively to zero has hit some pubs in Scotland, as the original drink driving rules previously closed a lot of country pubs and restaurants. I could argue that the majority of sensible drinkers were penalised for the sins of a few irresponsible ones, however, I believe that we all accept that driving while under the influence of either drugs or alcohol is wrong - so it had to happen.
I'm not sure that it is true to say that pubs are an endangered species - plenty more seem to open, however there are a range of reasons why some may shut. Tied pubs may not be economical. Some pubs price themselves out of a market where originally, there was no such thing as off-sales. Some pubs, particularly in Scotland, are simply crap. Some have not moved forward from the era where you have to fight your way to the bar, spend ten minutes waving twenties under the noses of bar staff who are ignoring you, then stand in a crush drinking a pint. That is a bygone era, its not pleasant and I predict that few people will want to do it in future. In Germany, you sit down and someone serves you. That is civilised.
Edited by cardigankid on Monday 9th February 17:29
s2art said:
Claudia Skies said:
Some things are definitely impossible. Near the top of the list is, "Taxing smokers too much".
Happened some time ago. Indications are that the tax take is reducing. Those who I know all smoke stuff thats been brought in from abroad. You can get a flight to Faro for approx £70 return and then buy a shedload of cartons, saving approx £50 per carton compared to UK prices. Its a no brainer for any smoker.RYH64E said:
When I was a lad we went to the pub to drink, fast forward 30 years and most people I know go to the pub to eat, and have a pint whilst you're there. Maybe that's more of a feature of the pubs I frequent out here in the sticks, but as far as I'm aware food is a big part of the turnover for most pubs nowadays. If you're going to a pub for lunch or dinner the last thing you want is someone at an adjoining table lighting up a cigarette.
What you seem to be saying is that your habits have changed over the past 30 years.flyingvisit said:
As more people quit smoking or are driven to buying their smokes abroad, the anti-smoking zealots will have to pay more tax. So cough up (see what I did there?). I hope they're happy with that. The government HAS to get the money from somewhere.
No it doesn't. The tax intake is like tobacco, it's addictive and they crave ever more. Just cut the supply and they'll learn to do without. The less cash government has, the less it can waste and giveaway.
bad company said:
RYH64E said:
When I was a lad we went to the pub to drink, fast forward 30 years and most people I know go to the pub to eat, and have a pint whilst you're there. Maybe that's more of a feature of the pubs I frequent out here in the sticks, but as far as I'm aware food is a big part of the turnover for most pubs nowadays. If you're going to a pub for lunch or dinner the last thing you want is someone at an adjoining table lighting up a cigarette.
What you seem to be saying is that your habits have changed over the past 30 years.TooMany2cvs said:
And that is where you are so VERY wrong.
The smell of cigarette smoke is NOT just the smell of burning vegetation. Objectively, it is the smell of heavily chemically-enhanced burning vegetation. . Your subjectivity is that it's just burning leaves. It really, really isn't. Objectively, that smoke contains a very large number of carcinogens and other harmful components which quite simply aren't there in vegetation that anybody is likely to come across in the UK.
B'sides, people don't sit down in a pub beer garden, or walk along the street, only to find somebody with a portable bonfire next to them. And you'll virtually NEVER come across anybody arguing that they should be able to light a bonfire in the middle of a building or vehicle.
And, yes, bonfire smoke can be harmful.
And, yes, it is antisocial to spark up a bonfire if other people are going to get smoked out.
I'm old enough to remember seeing and smelling pipe and cigar smoke in pubs - no chemically enhanced vegetation - just the burning of leaves. The smell of cigarette smoke is NOT just the smell of burning vegetation. Objectively, it is the smell of heavily chemically-enhanced burning vegetation. . Your subjectivity is that it's just burning leaves. It really, really isn't. Objectively, that smoke contains a very large number of carcinogens and other harmful components which quite simply aren't there in vegetation that anybody is likely to come across in the UK.
B'sides, people don't sit down in a pub beer garden, or walk along the street, only to find somebody with a portable bonfire next to them. And you'll virtually NEVER come across anybody arguing that they should be able to light a bonfire in the middle of a building or vehicle.
And, yes, bonfire smoke can be harmful.
And, yes, it is antisocial to spark up a bonfire if other people are going to get smoked out.
At the time I used to think it added to smell of a pub.
But nowadays, and even as a smoker, I think if I were to step back in time I'd be gagging as soon as put a foot through the door.
I do understand the ban of smoking inside public areas, in fact I could never understand why it wasn't banned in restaurants long before.
What I don't understand is why non smokers exclaim that every smoker stinks, or that they can't stand being near a smoker - even outside.
Firstly I can quite categorically state that I don't stink of fags (my Mrs being an ex-smoker would back me up on this). As I only ever smoke outside my clothes probably get more of an airing than an office bod sitting inside at his desk all day.
Ok my breath may smell directly after having a fag but it soon wears off - in much the same way as nobody arrives at work with their breath still smelling of toothpaste.
And a considerate smoker can have a fag outside with an avid hater without the avid hater having to walk a mile away or wear breathing equipment - it's simply a case of noticing which way the wind is blowing.
I hate bananas! I hate the taste of them so much I will be physically sick and just the smell of them is enough to make me gag.
I'd like laws banning anyone eating one within range of me or coming over to speak to me having just eaten one and the skins should be bagged and burnt immediately.
What I trying to say is that everybody has tastes and smells that they find nauseating - it maybe bananas, a perfume or smoking but in the main we all manage to live our lives without deliberately antagonising one another.
Smokers, in the main, are well aware that non smokers don't like it and I believe are generally self aware that even when smoking outside others have to be taken into consideration.
Overall I think rather than non smokers keep going about the few times a year when perhaps their health and happiness are marginally compromised by crossing the path of a smoker and getting a whiff of tobacco smoke their efforts would be better put to use by concentrating on something that effects almost everybody everyday (and in some cases all day, all of their life) - the health risks and pollution associated with the combustible engine.
But then again this is PH.
Back to the OP - I think they are over taxed, but I couldn't care less cos I get my tobacco tax free.
Squiggs said:
What I don't understand is why non smokers exclaim that every smoker stinks, or that they can't stand being near a smoker - even outside.
Firstly I can quite categorically state that I don't stink of fags (my Mrs being an ex-smoker would back me up on this). As I only ever smoke outside my clothes probably get more of an airing than an office bod sitting inside at his desk all day.
Ok my breath may smell directly after having a fag but it soon wears off - in much the same way as nobody arrives at work with their breath still smelling of toothpaste.
And a considerate smoker can have a fag outside with an avid hater without the avid hater having to walk a mile away or wear breathing equipment - it's simply a case of noticing which way the wind is blowing.
Im sorry to say that you stink of fags, you may think you don't but you do. I got in a lift the other day and one of the people had obviously been outside for a smoke. He stank the lift out. That smell lingers on your breath and your clothes much longer than you thinkFirstly I can quite categorically state that I don't stink of fags (my Mrs being an ex-smoker would back me up on this). As I only ever smoke outside my clothes probably get more of an airing than an office bod sitting inside at his desk all day.
Ok my breath may smell directly after having a fag but it soon wears off - in much the same way as nobody arrives at work with their breath still smelling of toothpaste.
And a considerate smoker can have a fag outside with an avid hater without the avid hater having to walk a mile away or wear breathing equipment - it's simply a case of noticing which way the wind is blowing.
Im an ex smoker, when I smoked I didnt think I stunk but now I realise that I must have.
Cotty said:
Im sorry to say that you stink of fags, you may think you don't but you do. I got in a lift the other day and one of the people had obviously been outside for a smoke. He stank the lift out. That smell lingers on your breath and your clothes much longer than you think
Im an ex smoker, when I smoked I didnt think I stunk but now I realise that I must have.
Got to agree with this. It sticks to your hair, clothes and anything else it can. Even when I smoked, afterwards I'd pop in a mint, wash my hands and face and sometimes and take off the coat I was wearing and others would still comment and wince at me for being a bit stinky. It does die down after a while but you can't hide it. I walked in the loos at work yesterday and it really stunk of a mix of what you'd expect to smell and tobacco. It was really a potent smell combination but there was nobody in the room, just the lingering smells of someone since gone. Im an ex smoker, when I smoked I didnt think I stunk but now I realise that I must have.
toon10 said:
Cotty said:
Im sorry to say that you stink of fags, you may think you don't but you do. I got in a lift the other day and one of the people had obviously been outside for a smoke. He stank the lift out. That smell lingers on your breath and your clothes much longer than you think
Im an ex smoker, when I smoked I didnt think I stunk but now I realise that I must have.
Got to agree with this. It sticks to your hair, clothes and anything else it can. Even when I smoked, afterwards I'd pop in a mint, wash my hands and face and sometimes and take off the coat I was wearing and others would still comment and wince at me for being a bit stinky. It does die down after a while but you can't hide it. I walked in the loos at work yesterday and it really stunk of a mix of what you'd expect to smell and tobacco. It was really a potent smell combination but there was nobody in the room, just the lingering smells of someone since gone. Im an ex smoker, when I smoked I didnt think I stunk but now I realise that I must have.
As for smoking outside, I've been sitting in a pub garden, having to stay outside because of smokers in the group, and yet still had to have my clothes cleaned the next day due to the smell.
The smell on the breath is one which is not from the smoke but from the lungs.
Derek Smith said:
And a third from me. On top of that, the reason your wife says you don't smoke might be because she has got used to the smell.
As for smoking outside, I've been sitting in a pub garden, having to stay outside because of smokers in the group, and yet still had to have my clothes cleaned the next day due to the smell.
The smell on the breath is one which is not from the smoke but from the lungs.
I guarantee that you wouldnt be able to tell that I smoke,you are far too precious about this, having to wash clothes after being outside with smokers??? Do you wash your clothes after walking down the street? after all theres nasty diesel smoke in the air. Seriously, I suggest you've got some sort of ocd issues to be this affected.As for smoking outside, I've been sitting in a pub garden, having to stay outside because of smokers in the group, and yet still had to have my clothes cleaned the next day due to the smell.
The smell on the breath is one which is not from the smoke but from the lungs.
Funkycoldribena said:
I guarantee that you wouldnt be able to tell that I smoke,you are far too precious about this, having to wash clothes after being outside with smokers??? Do you wash your clothes after walking down the street? after all theres nasty diesel smoke in the air. Seriously, I suggest you've got some sort of ocd issues to be this affected.
I used to pick up a friend on the way to work from her elderly father's house, he smoked, she didn't. I could smell the smoke on her clothes when she got in the car even if she'd only been in the house for ten or fifteen minutes.bad company said:
bodhi said:
I'd rather have a cigarette to be fair. Preferably with none of you non smokers around, the incessant bleating and attempts to take the high Road offend my ears.
Excuse me, non smoker here.I just wanted to make a case for pubs to be allowed a smoking room. Far too many pubs are closing and while I wouldn't just blame the smoking ban it has certainly had an adverse effect.
What happened to all the people who said they would visit the pubs again once the smoking had stopped?
I thoroughly enjoyed the cigarettes I smoked. Then I stopped. It's not that hard to do, people who claim it's hard to give up are using that as an enabling excuse.
Anybody who describes it as an addiction would probably describe Morris 1000 as a bloody fast car.
So yes, tax them and tax them hard.
Anybody who describes it as an addiction would probably describe Morris 1000 as a bloody fast car.
So yes, tax them and tax them hard.
Funkycoldribena said:
I guarantee that you wouldnt be able to tell that I smoke,you are far too precious about this, having to wash clothes after being outside with smokers??? Do you wash your clothes after walking down the street? after all theres nasty diesel smoke in the air. Seriously, I suggest you've got some sort of ocd issues to be this affected.
The reason I wash clothes, or at least hang them outside on the line, is so as not to affront those I come into contact with as much as my sensibilities. If this is being precious, then your definition of the state differs from mine. As for washing clothes after walking down the street, what I do do is sit outside pubs if I've been cycling, say, across the Downs as although I can't smell my sweat, I've got the feeling others might.
When I get home, I put my cycling clothes in the wash as there's no way I'll put them on stinking of stale sweat. I'm precious that way.
You might feel I would not be able to detect smoke on your clothes. You might be right. However, I can't judge because I don't know you and you can't judge because you are a smoker. Mind you, if you smoke the average for a male in this country, around 13 fags, then I'll be able to smell it on your breath.
That's even without kissing you.
There is research to show that smoking in a car or in a house concentrates the smoke meaning that others who sit in the car or frequent the house will also take on the odour.
I sat outside where there was a small bonfire to keep up warm for a late season BBQ. The smell of the fire got into my clothes and I hung them outside of the house overnight. My wife, who took them down, could still smell the smoke the following morning so put them all in the wash.
She's precious to me, but does she come into your definition of the word for not wanting to put smelly clothes in a wardrobe and so make other clothes smell?
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