TransAsia ATR crash in Taiwan.

[dudleybloke]

Amazing how anyone survived it.

[budgie smuggler]

There's a video here which shows a wider angle:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1053519784674...

Looks pretty close to those tall buildings!

[hantsxlg]

seems that crash was about 4 mins after take off. They a/c stopped climbing 30 sec of so after take off, and then speed/altitude decayed resulting in the filmed crash.

Looks to be in the last few seconds that they were desperately trying to make it over the buildings, and then experience a deep stall with port wing stalling first (engine failed?) hence rapid left bank and rate of descent.

[croyde]

budgie smuggler said:

There's a video here which shows a wider angle:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1053519784674...

Looks pretty close to those tall buildings!

Love how they continue their journey. Don't even stop at the taxi that's been hit.

Look at that plane! OMG it's crashing! Oh well better get on, you know how Aunt Maud hates it when we are late for lunch.

[iphonedyou]

Testaburger said:

Yes, obviously.

Agreed, as I alluded to in laymans terms.

I am acutely aware of transport category performance requirements.

Laymans terms don't allow the shoehorning in of as many acronyms as possible, though. That's where you went wrong (or right, in my view).

[CAPP0]

Current casualty count flitting between 31 dead, 12 survivors (injured), 15 still unaccounted for, or 43 dead, 15 injured.

[davepoth]

hantsxlg said:

seems that crash was about 4 mins after take off. They a/c stopped climbing 30 sec of so after take off, and then speed/altitude decayed resulting in the filmed crash.

Looks to be in the last few seconds that they were desperately trying to make it over the buildings, and then experience a deep stall with port wing stalling first (engine failed?) hence rapid left bank and rate of descent.

Seems plausible. I guess the plan was a controlled ditch into the river, which would have been about the first place possible to put it down. If that's the case then this is a case of lives saved rather than lost.

[HoHoHo]

I'd say it clipped a building on the left with the bootom of its tail as soon as the aircraft comes into shot and the way it hits the car and he appears to survive is frankly amazing.

His good day is somewhat overshadowed by those who didn't make it

[Cobalt Blue]

HoHoHo said:

I'd say it clipped a building on the left with the bootom of its tail as soon as the aircraft comes into shot and the way it hits the car and he appears to survive is frankly amazing.

His good day is somewhat overshadowed by those who didn't make it

No sign of debris from the plane as it passes the tall building, it was close, but no indication of a strike, and no sign of damage to the plane here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-31125735.

Comments from other ATR72 pilots suggest that the prop would auto-feather when the engine flamed out, and the gear is clearly up. Some flap is set, but I doubt that they could have retracted flap before gaining (much) more airspeed.

So, the plane was -probably- in the best low-drag configuration and the worry is why it failed to climb on the one remaining engine?

Another question is why the plane was so far to the right of the runway extended centreline? This path is over a built-up area whereas a gentle left turn would take it over -some- woodland - better for noise abatement at least.

[hornetrider]

Testaburger said:

Yes, obviously.

[Lordbenny]

At least THREE cars on the bridge at the moment the plane struck where recording from dash cams. I don't now a single person who has a dash cam over here!

[MartG]

Lordbenny said:

At least THREE cars on the bridge at the moment the plane struck where recording from dash cams. I don't now a single person who has a dash cam over here!

In some countries e.g. Russia I believe it's an insurance requirement to have one

[Chuck328]

Ginetta G15 Girl said:

I take it that you mean VMCa (Velocity Min Control Airborne), specifically in this case VMCa1 as opposed to VMC.

If it was (as seems likely) a VMCa problem then there must have been some mis-handling given that (for a Perf A a/c), Vr (rotate speed) is defined as being a minimum of 1.05x VMCa1 and that V2 (minimum climb speed for best angle, 1 engine inoperative) is a minimum of 1.1 VMCa1.

Four engines probably not representative but, on the C130 if you lost say an outboard at take off, what was the roll rate like? I say that because I'll stick my neck out here and say it was nothing to do with VMCA.

I crashed a Dornier 328 once (in the sim - on purpose - ish).

Reason being, even with auto feather, if you didn't get that aileron in (lots) the bugger would roll fast. I can't remember what the bank angle was ( been a while now) but there was that point of no return - and it seemed to happen quickly. Un recoverable. It was a demo to us as much as anything by the instructors to show how important it was to keep wings level while the rudder went in.

I don't know how the ATR compares but I wonder if it's not too dissimilar?


Edit: just looking at the wider angle footage now, my scenario is not the case.

Edited by Chuck328 on Thursday 5th February 02:24

[Testaburger]

iphonedyou said:

Laymans terms don't allow the shoehorning in of as many acronyms as possible, though. That's where you went wrong (or right, in my view).

Which is why I only used one.

In your view, I didn't pull out the goods..!

[HoHoHo]

Cobalt Blue said:

HoHoHo said:

I'd say it clipped a building on the left with the bootom of its tail as soon as the aircraft comes into shot and the way it hits the car and he appears to survive is frankly amazing.

His good day is somewhat overshadowed by those who didn't make it

No sign of debris from the plane as it passes the tall building, it was close, but no indication of a strike, and no sign of damage to the plane here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-31125735.

Comments from other ATR72 pilots suggest that the prop would auto-feather when the engine flamed out, and the gear is clearly up. Some flap is set, but I doubt that they could have retracted flap before gaining (much) more airspeed.

So, the plane was -probably- in the best low-drag configuration and the worry is why it failed to climb on the one remaining engine?

Another question is why the plane was so far to the right of the runway extended centreline? This path is over a built-up area whereas a gentle left turn would take it over -some- woodland - better for noise abatement at least.

I suspect you're correct and it was the angle of one of the dashcams footage - looked as if there was some dust or similar just as it came into view.

Tragic and very scary again to see a real crash rather than a Hollywood stunt

[Legend83]

Ginetta G15 Girl said:

I take it that you mean VMCa (Velocity Min Control Airborne), specifically in this case VMCa1 as opposed to VMC.

If it was (as seems likely) a VMCa problem then there must have been some mis-handling given that (for a Perf A a/c), Vr (rotate speed) is defined as being a minimum of 1.05x VMCa1 and that V2 (minimum climb speed for best angle, 1 engine inoperative) is a minimum of 1.1 VMCa1.

Wow, are you a pilot?

That is so cool.

[Asterix]

Legend83 said:

Ginetta G15 Girl said:

I take it that you mean VMCa (Velocity Min Control Airborne), specifically in this case VMCa1 as opposed to VMC.

If it was (as seems likely) a VMCa problem then there must have been some mis-handling given that (for a Perf A a/c), Vr (rotate speed) is defined as being a minimum of 1.05x VMCa1 and that V2 (minimum climb speed for best angle, 1 engine inoperative) is a minimum of 1.1 VMCa1.

Wow, are you a pilot?

That is so cool.

Something rubber out of Hong Kong IIRC...

[iphonedyou]

Testaburger said:

Which is why I only used one.

In your view, I didn't pull out the goods..!

I was supporting your presentation of the point. That Ginetta lady posts as many acronyms as possible in to make sure everybody, everywhere, knows she flies planes.

[onyx39]

I realise that this is a "still" rather than a photo, but what an incredible image.

[xjay1337]

Didn't realise half of the AAIB resided on this forum....!!