Rotherham Council mass resignation.....
Discussion
Blimey this is sounding more like project managers excuse for not starting a task because they weren't prepared to make key assumptions and decisions modifying as they are proved Good or bad........very quickly losing sight of the victims, incompetent feckers and nasty predators that need sorting out, all in one foul swoop.
V8 Fettler said:
CSE doesn't stop conveniently at the town boundaries, e.g. the police/CPS believe that men were travelling to offend in Halifax from Wales, Bradford, Nantwich, Huddersfield, Derby and Shipley http://www.halifaxcourier.co.uk/news/crime/child-s...
Re: scrap, your original view was that it was not possible to estimate the full scale of scrap theft, I demonstrated that ACPO and the Home Office did just that. You're now moving the goalposts by stating that theft of scrap was falling due to police action before the Home Office/ACPO commenced their estimating. The Home Office were doing their estimating in 2010/2011, if we look at copper theft on the railways (accurate records being available) we can see that the number of monthly incidents involving cable theft increased during 2011, market value for copper being the primary driver.
From http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/...
Re: "target-hardening" of unknown "suitable targets". What happens currently in schools? 30 minutes a week on "Why you should develop a cynical and automatic mistrust of strangers" would be useful. There must be something irrelevant that could be dropped from the curriculum to achieve this.
The original point of the power generation and transmission analogy was to demonstrate that a lack of knowledge of detailed processes did not prevent an understanding of the overall principles.
I'm away now for a couple of days, so you'll have plenty of time to dissect (or otherwise)!
Edit: having read the Halifax Courier article again, it is possible that the accused were all residents in the Halifax area at the time of the alleged offences but some have since moved; yet more unknowns.
I didn't say there was no cross-border crime, I said I disagree there'd be any 'hole filling' to any meaningful degree. If we have offenders in one area, there aren't likely to displace to an area that leaves 'room for business' (assuming their offending couldn't have been facilitated absorbed in the first place). Remember, the probability of detection has a general link to prevention. Who is going to travel to an area because everyone else has been caught, arrested, prosecuted (publically) and imprisoned? Re: scrap, your original view was that it was not possible to estimate the full scale of scrap theft, I demonstrated that ACPO and the Home Office did just that. You're now moving the goalposts by stating that theft of scrap was falling due to police action before the Home Office/ACPO commenced their estimating. The Home Office were doing their estimating in 2010/2011, if we look at copper theft on the railways (accurate records being available) we can see that the number of monthly incidents involving cable theft increased during 2011, market value for copper being the primary driver.
From http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/...
Re: "target-hardening" of unknown "suitable targets". What happens currently in schools? 30 minutes a week on "Why you should develop a cynical and automatic mistrust of strangers" would be useful. There must be something irrelevant that could be dropped from the curriculum to achieve this.
The original point of the power generation and transmission analogy was to demonstrate that a lack of knowledge of detailed processes did not prevent an understanding of the overall principles.
I'm away now for a couple of days, so you'll have plenty of time to dissect (or otherwise)!
Edit: having read the Halifax Courier article again, it is possible that the accused were all residents in the Halifax area at the time of the alleged offences but some have since moved; yet more unknowns.
La Liga said:
I also disagree there'd be cross border 'hole filling' to any meaningful degree.
I'm still no clearer why you've dismissed why there isn't a finite number of offenders. Please explain why this would be the case. I still speculate it's a convenient dismissal of a problem solving model you don't want to work because if it did, it would mean there's no need for what you are saying there's a need for. The scarp metal example went like this:
1) I pointed out that there were many unknowns when it was addressed.
2) You sighted data produced around the scrap-metal bill.
3) I clarified that I was referring to when it began, not when the statue was drafted.
4) You've said I have moved the goal posts, when in fact I was clarifying.
5) You've produced a graph specifically about the railway based on recorded crime. Firstly, the railway is a narrow view. Any valuable metal was being stolen. Recorded crime isn't an issue nor hard data to capture as it's being recorded at the time. The CSE data we're talking about is historic unknown people. Apples and oranges.
The point about scrap metal, was the scale and speed in which is became of a large scale. The unknowns were "who is doing what?", "who is travelling where?", "which yards are buying from whom?", "which yards are involved in the crime?", and many, many more. Recorded crime increased, but recorded crime never captures the full extent of a crime type (albeit it gets close with very serious things like murder). The figures you produced of 60,000 - 80,000 (IIRC) show this to be the case. There were intelligence and data-gaps all over the place. Starting from a position of identifying who was doing what and what gangs there were resulted in recorded reductions prior to any accurate, national estimates.
The general point being they didn't need to know everything to have an effect. Just the same as with CSE. No offenders = no crime.
In terms of education, if you look at Rotherham's strategy up to 2016, it's in there. What specific form it takes I do not know.
Out of interest, this structure is national best practice, what does "Prevent, Protect and Pursue" sound like? Could it be, "Suitable Target", "Capable Guardian" and "Motivated Offender"? It sounds nicer but it's the same model. Interesting how it's judged to be the mot appropriate for the LA to work from as the police.
HarryW said:
Blimey this is sounding more like project managers excuse for not starting a task because they weren't prepared to make key assumptions and decisions modifying as they are proved Good or bad........very quickly losing sight of the victims, incompetent feckers and nasty predators that need sorting out, all in one foul swoop.
Indeed, you don't need every last piece to a) get going b) have a significant impact and be able to appropriately assess and resource. It's a little contradictory to make this point, given the specifics of this thread and failings. In general sense, the police are very good at being effective with often limited information, as a risk-environment of this nature doesn't often have the luxury of time.
I certainly hope theres no repeat of the suspects moving away as they have in the Halifax case.A point which never recieved a reply at the start of this thread, about children being abused, , wasn't it?
Oh, and Robin, Im sure that when one of the victims was interviewed on BBC news she mentioned the two of the suspects "turned up outside my house, suited and booted, in a police car!!!"
Sounds really reassuring that these pervs will get sorted doesn't it?
Oh, and Robin, Im sure that when one of the victims was interviewed on BBC news she mentioned the two of the suspects "turned up outside my house, suited and booted, in a police car!!!"
Sounds really reassuring that these pervs will get sorted doesn't it?
Edited by spadriver on Saturday 14th February 13:18
spadriver said:
Oh, and Robin, Im sure that when one of the victims was interviewed on BBC news she mentioned the two of the suspects "turned up outside my house, suited and booted, in a police car!!!"
Sounds really reassuring that these pervs will get sorted doesn't it?
What people say in interviews with the media isn't necessarily true, but more to the point, it's what they say in court, if they are prepared to take that step which nearly all of them are not that will make the difference, not what they say on TV.Sounds really reassuring that these pervs will get sorted doesn't it?
Edited by spadriver on Saturday 14th February 13:18
I can only think that a lot of people here lead very sheltered lives, and haven't come into contact with that whole section of society which loathes the police and the rest of the justice system and will have nothing to do with them.
The way the law works in this country is that if there is a victim, and that victim is alive, then they need to testify in court, and if they won't do that...
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-3147...
Hidden away By the BBC in the local news, Miliband apologises.
Hidden away By the BBC in the local news, Miliband apologises.
freakybacon said:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-3147...
Hidden away By the BBC in the local news, Miliband apologises.
That is alright then, all forgiven. NOT!Hidden away By the BBC in the local news, Miliband apologises.
freakybacon said:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-3147...
Hidden away By the BBC in the local news, Miliband apologises.
Strange that, he's on the news front page most days of late grandstanding and electioneering with the most trivial of things. I can't understand why the BBC feel the need to lose this in the provincial sections when there is an election looming.......Hidden away By the BBC in the local news, Miliband apologises.
Making it a local issue also conveniently avoids this:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/roth...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/roth...
In another thread DudleyBloke said Melanie Shaw, Operation Daybreak whistle blower had been mentioned. It seems she's back in HMP Peterborough and looking around for more information about that I came across this:
http://www.ukcolumn.org/article/rotherham-common-p...
It reminds me of what Dame Fiona Woolf said about the establishment and hermits when her impartiality to chair Theresa May's over arching paedophilia Inquiry was queried.
http://www.ukcolumn.org/article/rotherham-common-p...
It reminds me of what Dame Fiona Woolf said about the establishment and hermits when her impartiality to chair Theresa May's over arching paedophilia Inquiry was queried.
La Liga said:
V8 Fettler said:
CSE doesn't stop conveniently at the town boundaries, e.g. the police/CPS believe that men were travelling to offend in Halifax from Wales, Bradford, Nantwich, Huddersfield, Derby and Shipley http://www.halifaxcourier.co.uk/news/crime/child-s...
Re: scrap, your original view was that it was not possible to estimate the full scale of scrap theft, I demonstrated that ACPO and the Home Office did just that. You're now moving the goalposts by stating that theft of scrap was falling due to police action before the Home Office/ACPO commenced their estimating. The Home Office were doing their estimating in 2010/2011, if we look at copper theft on the railways (accurate records being available) we can see that the number of monthly incidents involving cable theft increased during 2011, market value for copper being the primary driver.
From http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/...
Re: "target-hardening" of unknown "suitable targets". What happens currently in schools? 30 minutes a week on "Why you should develop a cynical and automatic mistrust of strangers" would be useful. There must be something irrelevant that could be dropped from the curriculum to achieve this.
The original point of the power generation and transmission analogy was to demonstrate that a lack of knowledge of detailed processes did not prevent an understanding of the overall principles.
I'm away now for a couple of days, so you'll have plenty of time to dissect (or otherwise)!
Edit: having read the Halifax Courier article again, it is possible that the accused were all residents in the Halifax area at the time of the alleged offences but some have since moved; yet more unknowns.
I didn't say there was no cross-border crime, I said I disagree there'd be any 'hole filling' to any meaningful degree. If we have offenders in one area, there aren't likely to displace to an area that leaves 'room for business' (assuming their offending couldn't have been facilitated absorbed in the first place). Remember, the probability of detection has a general link to prevention. Who is going to travel to an area because everyone else has been caught, arrested, prosecuted (publically) and imprisoned? Re: scrap, your original view was that it was not possible to estimate the full scale of scrap theft, I demonstrated that ACPO and the Home Office did just that. You're now moving the goalposts by stating that theft of scrap was falling due to police action before the Home Office/ACPO commenced their estimating. The Home Office were doing their estimating in 2010/2011, if we look at copper theft on the railways (accurate records being available) we can see that the number of monthly incidents involving cable theft increased during 2011, market value for copper being the primary driver.
From http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/...
Re: "target-hardening" of unknown "suitable targets". What happens currently in schools? 30 minutes a week on "Why you should develop a cynical and automatic mistrust of strangers" would be useful. There must be something irrelevant that could be dropped from the curriculum to achieve this.
The original point of the power generation and transmission analogy was to demonstrate that a lack of knowledge of detailed processes did not prevent an understanding of the overall principles.
I'm away now for a couple of days, so you'll have plenty of time to dissect (or otherwise)!
Edit: having read the Halifax Courier article again, it is possible that the accused were all residents in the Halifax area at the time of the alleged offences but some have since moved; yet more unknowns.
La Liga said:
I also disagree there'd be cross border 'hole filling' to any meaningful degree.
I'm still no clearer why you've dismissed why there isn't a finite number of offenders. Please explain why this would be the case. I still speculate it's a convenient dismissal of a problem solving model you don't want to work because if it did, it would mean there's no need for what you are saying there's a need for. The scarp metal example went like this:
1) I pointed out that there were many unknowns when it was addressed.
2) You sighted data produced around the scrap-metal bill.
3) I clarified that I was referring to when it began, not when the statue was drafted.
4) You've said I have moved the goal posts, when in fact I was clarifying.
5) You've produced a graph specifically about the railway based on recorded crime. Firstly, the railway is a narrow view. Any valuable metal was being stolen. Recorded crime isn't an issue nor hard data to capture as it's being recorded at the time. The CSE data we're talking about is historic unknown people. Apples and oranges.
The point about scrap metal, was the scale and speed in which is became of a large scale. The unknowns were "who is doing what?", "who is travelling where?", "which yards are buying from whom?", "which yards are involved in the crime?", and many, many more. Recorded crime increased, but recorded crime never captures the full extent of a crime type (albeit it gets close with very serious things like murder). The figures you produced of 60,000 - 80,000 (IIRC) show this to be the case. There were intelligence and data-gaps all over the place. Starting from a position of identifying who was doing what and what gangs there were resulted in recorded reductions prior to any accurate, national estimates.
The general point being they didn't need to know everything to have an effect. Just the same as with CSE. No offenders = no crime.
In terms of education, if you look at Rotherham's strategy up to 2016, it's in there. What specific form it takes I do not know.
Out of interest, this structure is national best practice, what does "Prevent, Protect and Pursue" sound like? Could it be, "Suitable Target", "Capable Guardian" and "Motivated Offender"? It sounds nicer but it's the same model. Interesting how it's judged to be the mot appropriate for the LA to work from as the police.
HarryW said:
Blimey this is sounding more like project managers excuse for not starting a task because they weren't prepared to make key assumptions and decisions modifying as they are proved Good or bad........very quickly losing sight of the victims, incompetent feckers and nasty predators that need sorting out, all in one foul swoop.
Indeed, you don't need every last piece to a) get going b) have a significant impact and be able to appropriately assess and resource. It's a little contradictory to make this point, given the specifics of this thread and failings. In general sense, the police are very good at being effective with often limited information, as a risk-environment of this nature doesn't often have the luxury of time.
Examples:
http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/crime/internet-...
http://www.kentonline.co.uk/medway/news/baby-faced...
http://www.prestwichandwhitefieldguide.co.uk/news/...
If profiling is permitted then add to that the likelihood of younger (existing) residents maturing into "motivated offenders", demographics: http://www.rotherham.gov.uk/jsna/downloads/file/85... , also the likelihood of a % of recently arrived immigrants becoming resident in Rotherham and then becoming "motivated offenders".
If the likelihood of arrest is high then the number of "motivated offenders" may be restricted, but how will you know if the likelihood for arrest is high if you don't know the ratio of arrests/offences? Also need to establish if it's a rare crime, "suitable targets" / victims. Can't achieve this without knowledge of the number of "suitable targets" and victims.
One scenario is that there are "motivated offenders" who (perhaps by chance) only target "suitable targets" who aren't known to the "capable guardians", therefore completely under the radar. Impossible to deal with, as happened in Rotherham.
The "Routine Activities Theory" probably works where victims (and potential victims) typically make themselves known to the authorities, my understanding is that doesn't generally occur with CSE (or the authorities ignore the complaints).
Re: Protect, prevent, pursue. The summary you posted refers to "universal education programme" and "identify, locate and protect children", so it must therefore be possible to identify the "suitable targets", which contradicts your view that engaging with unknown "suitable targets" is hard to achieve and not required anyway.
Re: scrap. The only detailed data for scrap theft over the period you refer to is copper cable theft from overground railways (unless you have additional data), therefore this must form the basis of any analysis. Trends in copper cable theft will typically align with trends in other metal thefts, provided that the market prices for copper and general metal scrap align, which they generally do:
Go back to the copper cable theft graph, there is an overall increase in theft up to July 2011, ACPO were reporting estimates for scrap metal theft in 2010.
Melanie Shaw, Operation Daybreak whistle blower was deemed mentally unwell while she was held on remand for 3 months last autumn before being released for a few weeks before her trial in Nottingham.
Being categorised as mentally ill could be used to conveniently make any evidence she may have about historic sexual abuse of children in care in Nottingham unreliable and inadmissible.
When we have stuff like this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/11/29/paul-ne...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=28&...
Why is a childhood sexual abuse victim back in HMP Peterborough?
Has she been charged?
Why aren't the mainstream press covering it?
Where does it sit with the South Yorks. Police Tweet that mental ill health in children may be due to sexual abuse?
That's just the sort of thing to expect from the police when they're run by 'Business Managers' and have their own Marketing Depts. with PR Awards to chase?
What's it got to do with Rotherham? Like PCC Shaun Wright in South Yorks., Paddy Tipping was previously in Social Work in Notts. before becoming their PCC.
Being categorised as mentally ill could be used to conveniently make any evidence she may have about historic sexual abuse of children in care in Nottingham unreliable and inadmissible.
When we have stuff like this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/11/29/paul-ne...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=28&...
Why is a childhood sexual abuse victim back in HMP Peterborough?
Has she been charged?
Why aren't the mainstream press covering it?
Where does it sit with the South Yorks. Police Tweet that mental ill health in children may be due to sexual abuse?
That's just the sort of thing to expect from the police when they're run by 'Business Managers' and have their own Marketing Depts. with PR Awards to chase?
What's it got to do with Rotherham? Like PCC Shaun Wright in South Yorks., Paddy Tipping was previously in Social Work in Notts. before becoming their PCC.
Edited by carinaman on Tuesday 17th February 07:47
carinaman said:
Melanie Shaw, Operation Daybreak whistle blower was deemed mentally unwell while she was held on remand for 3 months last autumn before being released for a few weeks before her trial in Nottingham.
Being categorised as mentally ill could be used to conveniently make any evidence she may have about historic sexual abuse of children in care in Nottingham unreliable and inadmissible.
Who categorised her as mentally unwell? I believe there is a strict process to go through before that can happen, so suggesting it was done for convenience is bBeing categorised as mentally ill could be used to conveniently make any evidence she may have about historic sexual abuse of children in care in Nottingham unreliable and inadmissible.
ks.RobinOakapple said:
Who categorised her as mentally unwell? I believe there is a strict process to go through before that can happen, so suggesting it was done for convenience is bks.
Whilst I'm not supporting a suggestion of conspiracy, I think you might be mistaking the rigorous 'sectioning' under the Mental Health Act with just the generic classification of having a mental illness. The latter term is very general and can get any number of people in its net. ks.Even if she has a problem, that doesn't mean she telling lies or that her view on what went on in her youth is undependable.
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