British man beats German tourist to death.

[Liokault]

TTwiggy said:

Liokault said:

TTwiggy said:

Liokault said:

TTwiggy said:

Kids in the shower are naked, as well as being there in person. Pictures of fully clothed children are just images of fully clothed children. Your examples bear no comparison.

Why is it different? Why, if no one finds they are being watched, is it ok to have a shuffle at home over pics you took of a kid in a restaurant, but not ok to have a shuffle looking through a hole at actual kids?

I don't think I'm qualified to explain this to you. Maybe you should seek professional guidance.

No, I don’t need guidance, as I understand that peeking at kids through a hole whilst masturbating is wrong. I also understand that taking pictures of a total stranger kid with a view to later masturbating over them is also wrong. You seem to disagree with this.

The fact that the pictures were taken in such a manner that the father thought he had to look at a strangers Ipad suggests that the German was not acting appropriately.

The fact that after checking the pictures the father found a need to punch the German suggests that the pictures themselves were not appropriate.

The fact that the German was under investigation for Pedophilia suggests that later masturbation was probably the reason for taking the pics.

You've started from the POV of a hypothetical scenario and moved into baseless supposition about the case in hand. I don't really see what I've got to work with here.

No, the first two "facts" are what has been presented to us in the media, not suppositions. We can of course dismiss everything in the media until after the court hearing, and then we can dismiss what we read about the court hearing in the media. Won't be much of a thread though will it.

The third "fact" or as you put it supposition, I left open with the term suggests, as although it is a fact he was under investigation, he was not at that point convicted.


Very nice way to uphold your weak argument btw.

[Eclassy]

TTwiggy said:

I don't think I'm qualified to explain this to you. Maybe you should seek professional guidance.

Very true (should be professional help).

Loco!

[TTwiggy]

Liokault said:

No, the first two "facts" are what has been presented to us in the media, not suppositions. We can of course dismiss everything in the media until after the court hearing, and then we can dismiss what we read about the court hearing in the media. Won't be much of a thread though will it.

The third "fact" or as you put it supposition, I left open with the term suggests, as although it is a fact he was under investigation, he was not at that point convicted.


Very nice way to uphold your weak argument btw.

You were the one inventing imaginary scenarios involving holes drilled in shower walls. You rather lost any right to demand reasoned discussion at that point, IMHO. Still, if you want to feel that you've 'won at the internet', be my guest .

[wc98]

Janluke said:

My first thought would be to remove my family to a place of safety
Report the matter to the police then chase up any action
Speak to the local bar/restaurant owners, other families and make them aware of the mans actions
If necessary avoid him and keep an extra eye on my family

I'm sure he didnt expect to kill the German so lets say he didnt, lets say it was "just" an assault. German makes a complaint "Hothead" gets arrested and put in a cell for the night or longer. He's now in a situation where he's locked up, the German's out and about in the town where his wife/girlfriend and kids are home alone. OK I know this didnt happen but to use violence in anything other than a direct physical threat just too risky

thanks for the well reasoned response. you are indeed a better man than me, i am prone to being a bit hot headed and would probably have thumped him. the other thing worth thinking about,which i probably would not would be him returning the punch with interest ,possibly in the presence of wife and kids.not a pleasant situation.

the single situation i have been involved in where i perceived a direct threat to my eldest daughter could well have ended up badly as there were several blokes present that worked with the weirdo i thumped . i like to think they knew what he was and were unlikely to intervene.

[Liokault]

TTwiggy said:

Liokault said:

No, the first two "facts" are what has been presented to us in the media, not suppositions. We can of course dismiss everything in the media until after the court hearing, and then we can dismiss what we read about the court hearing in the media. Won't be much of a thread though will it.

The third "fact" or as you put it supposition, I left open with the term suggests, as although it is a fact he was under investigation, he was not at that point convicted.


Very nice way to uphold your weak argument btw.

You were the one inventing imaginary scenarios involving holes drilled in shower walls. You rather lost any right to demand reasoned discussion at that point, IMHO. Still, if you want to feel that you've 'won at the internet', be my guest .

You were suggesting that it was perfectly legal (I agree) and normal (I disagree) to picture random kids, even if those pictures would later be used for sexual gratification.

I wanted to see how far you think it’s ok to use others for sexual gratification without their knowledge. Instead you side tracked.

[ofcorsa]

boobles said:

Oakey said:

I'm not sure, maybe one of the BiB can confirm this, but aren't there 'degrees' of 'child pornography'? I think even clothed images of children can be classed as 'child porn' if they're intended for sexual gratification?

I don't really want to Google this to find out :P

I think this is why you have to get permission to take photos at school plays etc.
So I would say yes it is ilegal without permission.

Surely schools are not considered public places which is why permission is required.

[TTwiggy]

Liokault said:

You were suggesting that it was perfectly legal (I agree) and normal (I disagree) to picture random kids, even if those pictures would later be used for sexual gratification.

I wanted to see how far you think it’s ok to use others for sexual gratification without their knowledge. Instead you side tracked.

Nope, I said that peering through a hole in the wall at naked kids in the shower is not the same as taking a picture of a fully clothed child in a public setting.

I never commented on the normality of either situation, so please don't suggest otherwise.

edited to add: If you believe that your second paragraph is a reasonable and fair question to ask someone, then maybe I could enquire as to whether you've stopped beating your wife?

Edited by TTwiggy on Wednesday 11th February 13:13

[ofcorsa]

Liokault said:

You were suggesting that it was perfectly legal (I agree) and normal (I disagree) to picture random kids, even if those pictures would later be used for sexual gratification.

I wanted to see how far you think it’s ok to use others for sexual gratification without their knowledge. Instead you side tracked.

So the Granthams catalogue is out of bounds as a gentleman's pamphlet?

[Burwood]

boobles said:

Oakey said:

I'm not sure, maybe one of the BiB can confirm this, but aren't there 'degrees' of 'child pornography'? I think even clothed images of children can be classed as 'child porn' if they're intended for sexual gratification?

I don't really want to Google this to find out :P

I think this is why you have to get permission to take photos at school plays etc.
So I would say yes it is ilegal without permission.

That is simply a policy by that specific venue. It highlights the sensitive nature of the subject. Even male staff at nursery taking young kids to the loo and changing nappies. It's a can of worms so I am an advocate for exclusion. It protects all parties. We went to a party a few weeks ago and took our 5 month old. Turned out back for 30 seconds and some guy we didn't know decides to pick him up and have a cuddle. I recall a news article a year or so ago about a grandfather playing with his granddaughter on the bus. He received all sorts of looks and mutterings about be a dirty old man. Sad world we live in but i think these things have gone on for ever but with the internet and instant news, more acutely aware of it.

[wc98]

MC Bodge said:

It is an interesting sociological issue.

Amongst my friends, colleagues and peers, I would be very surprised if any of them are advocates of summary justice and punishment beatings for suspected criminals who are not an immediate threat.

Is it a cultural thing?

quite possibly,i think those of a more sheltered upbringing come to see any form of physical reaction as a most terrible thing .this is a modern phenomena as humans have been punching each other and much worse since we were physically capable of swinging a punch.
if you were thumped as a kid for wrong doing, got into fights at school or took part in any number of full contact sporting activities you may feel that the odd smack in the teeth really is not much worse than a serious shouting match.

the world would indeed be a better place if people did not ever resort to physical reactions,sadly until we are all micro chipped different people will react differently in different situations.

[benjj]

What we really need here is some hard factual evidence. It is widely accepted that storyboarding them out like below will help:

[English cockernay thug] 'Ere, Fritz, lets ave us a right owd knees up ay? A few shandies, sum dancin' slaaaaagz and all vat.

[Peedo Hun] Jah, das ist ein good idea freund. Letss enjoy zum delissiuss lager bier and disucss zeez vunderbar kinders, yah? Zey are just so beautiful jah, such beautiful skin unt that.

[English cockernay thug] You wot? Never mind Fritz, lets 'ave us a partay ay? I tellz you wot, give us yer iPad and I'll show you a facking fanny video of some cats falling over an that...

[Peedo Hun] My iPad? NEIN. Diss ist ein private electrical, nicht fur dieser eyes. NEIN, you can not zee ze pics. NEIN, do night looken at my browsingen historich.

[English cockernay thug] FRITZ, what the FACK is this? Pics of my missiz and kidz? I'm gunna facking kill you Fritz. I'M GONNA FARKING KILL YOU.

I think we can all agree that this is exactly what happened and base our comments on it.

[Liokault]

TTwiggy said:

Liokault said:

You were suggesting that it was perfectly legal (I agree) and normal (I disagree) to picture random kids, even if those pictures would later be used for sexual gratification.

I wanted to see how far you think it’s ok to use others for sexual gratification without their knowledge. Instead you side tracked.

Nope, I said that peering through a hole in the wall at naked kids in the shower is not the same as taking a picture of a fully clothed child in a public setting.

I never commented on the normality of either situation, so please don't suggest otherwise.

By commenting "not the same as" the implication is that one is ok and one is not.

Yes, one is a hole, and one is a picture. A hole is indeed not the same as a picture. Why is it ok to take pictures of random kids for sexual gratification?

[Corpulent Tosser]

benjj said:

What we really need here is some hard factual evidence. It is widely accepted that storyboarding them out like below will help:

[English cockernay thug] 'Ere, Fritz, lets ave us a right owd knees up ay? A few shandies, sum dancin' slaaaaagz and all vat.

[Peedo Hun] Jah, das ist ein good idea freund. Letss enjoy zum delissiuss lager bier and disucss zeez vunderbar kinders, yah? Zey are just so beautiful jah, such beautiful skin unt that.

[English cockernay thug] You wot? Never mind Fritz, lets 'ave us a partay ay? I tellz you wot, give us yer iPad and I'll show you a facking fanny video of some cats falling over an that...

[Peedo Hun] My iPad? NEIN. Diss ist ein private electrical, nicht fur dieser eyes. NEIN, you can not zee ze pics. NEIN, do night looken at my browsingen historich.

[English cockernay thug] FRITZ, what the FACK is this? Pics of my missiz and kidz? I'm gunna facking kill you Fritz. I'M GONNA FARKING KILL YOU.

I think we can all agree that this is exactly what happened and base our comments on it.

Probably not too far from the actual events.

Instead of "You lookin at my burd?" It was possibly "You takin pictures of my burd/kids?"

[boobles]

Burwood said:

boobles said:

Oakey said:

I'm not sure, maybe one of the BiB can confirm this, but aren't there 'degrees' of 'child pornography'? I think even clothed images of children can be classed as 'child porn' if they're intended for sexual gratification?

I don't really want to Google this to find out :P

I think this is why you have to get permission to take photos at school plays etc.
So I would say yes it is ilegal without permission.

That is simply a policy by that specific venue. It highlights the sensitive nature of the subject. Even male staff at nursery taking young kids to the loo and changing nappies. It's a can of worms so I am an advocate for exclusion. It protects all parties. We went to a party a few weeks ago and took our 5 month old. Turned out back for 30 seconds and some guy we didn't know decides to pick him up and have a cuddle. I recall a news article a year or so ago about a grandfather playing with his granddaughter on the bus. He received all sorts of looks and mutterings about be a dirty old man. Sad world we live in but i think these things have gone on for ever but with the internet and instant news, more acutely aware of it.

& this is why it's a sensitive subject. For anyone saying that having photos taken of their children doesn't bother them, even if the pervert in question is going home a bashing one out, I ask how would they react if they caught somebody jerking off over a photo of their child? Or is it a case of "ignorance is bliss" ?

[Janluke]

wc98 said:

quite possibly,i think those of a more sheltered upbringing come to see any form of physical reaction as a most terrible thing .this is a modern phenomena as humans have been punching each other and much worse since we were physically capable of swinging a punch.
if you were thumped as a kid for wrong doing, got into fights at school or took part in any number of full contact sporting activities you may feel that the odd smack in the teeth really is not much worse than a serious shouting match.

the world would indeed be a better place if people did not ever resort to physical reactions,sadly until we are all micro chipped different people will react differently in different situations.

Its interesting and perhaps slightly off topic but my memories are that there was a lower level of casual violence back in my youth(I'm 50 this year grew up in a Cornish tin mining town) a few punches traded and on with the evening was par for the course. The Saturday night violence today seems to be more vicious. I can't recall ever seeing a knife pulled or indeed an ambulance. I may a have selective memory and be falling into the middle aged trap of everything being better in my day

[LucreLout]

TTwiggy said:

I've got pictures of my best mate's 3-year-old daughter (clothed and sitting on his lap, before anyone gets smart) on my phone. Am I now obliged to prove that I'm not getting a kick out of them?

You might be if your mate finds out you've taken them without his knowledge and permission.

[FrankAbagnale]

LucreLout said:

You might be if your mate finds out you've taken them without his knowledge and permission.

Might also become awkward if he asked you to stop taking pics of his young daughter and you refused.

Be interesting to see the full facts of the story and opinions once they're established.

[schmunk]

benjj said:

What we really need here is some hard factual evidence. It is widely accepted that storyboarding them out like below will help:

[English cockernay thug] 'Ere, Fritz, lets ave us a right owd knees up ay? A few shandies, sum dancin' slaaaaagz and all vat.

[Peedo Hun] Jah, das ist ein good idea freund. Letss enjoy zum delissiuss lager bier and disucss zeez vunderbar kinders, yah? Zey are just so beautiful jah, such beautiful skin unt that.

[English cockernay thug] You wot? Never mind Fritz, lets 'ave us a partay ay? I tellz you wot, give us yer iPad and I'll show you a facking fanny video of some cats falling over an that...

[Peedo Hun] My iPad? NEIN. Diss ist ein private electrical, nicht fur dieser eyes. NEIN, you can not zee ze pics. NEIN, do night looken at my browsingen historich.

[English cockernay thug] FRITZ, what the FACK is this? Pics of my missiz and kidz? I'm gunna facking kill you Fritz. I'M GONNA FARKING KILL YOU.

I think we can all agree that this is exactly what happened and base our comments on it.

[Janluke]

benjj said:

What we really need here is some hard factual evidence. It is widely accepted that storyboarding them out like below will help:

[English cockernay thug] 'Ere, Fritz, lets ave us a right owd knees up ay? A few shandies, sum dancin' slaaaaagz and all vat.

[Peedo Hun] Jah, das ist ein good idea freund. Letss enjoy zum delissiuss lager bier and disucss zeez vunderbar kinders, yah? Zey are just so beautiful jah, such beautiful skin unt that.

[English cockernay thug] You wot? Never mind Fritz, lets 'ave us a partay ay? I tellz you wot, give us yer iPad and I'll show you a facking fanny video of some cats falling over an that...

[Peedo Hun] My iPad? NEIN. Diss ist ein private electrical, nicht fur dieser eyes. NEIN, you can not zee ze pics. NEIN, do night looken at my browsingen historich.

[English cockernay thug] FRITZ, what the FACK is this? Pics of my missiz and kidz? I'm gunna facking kill you Fritz. I'M GONNA FARKING KILL YOU.

I think we can all agree that this is exactly what happened and base our comments on it.

Cracker :-)

[Bluebarge]

Liokault said:

I wanted to see how far you think it’s ok to use others for sexual gratification without their knowledge.

Well if it's due to Rohypnol/alcohol - plainly wrong, but I don't think anyone expects to have to ask permission to include someone in their "wk bank" - women would never be able to go out again without a burka on

As to taking pics of random kids without permission - bit strange unless you have a genuine reason (photography project fr'instance) but not harmful if the kid never knows what use it is being put to.