Can we talk about Sweden for a bit?
Discussion
paulrockliffe said:
On the one hand you're arguing that there isn't a significant problem, on the other you're pointing out that the Government took unprecedented measures to reduce the flow of migration.
Why did they do that if there wasn't a significant problem?
The main problem has actually been accommodation but that never gets mentioned by media outside of Sweden because it is too boring and does not fit in well with the narrative. The other problem was processing all the arrivals, again too boring. Why did they do that if there wasn't a significant problem?
Oceanic said:
My view is that with certain things you don't need to dignify them with a response, such as Mr Trump but the facts are out there.
Also, as example with this rape thing, people are taking the data that is available and then trying to compare it to other datasets which makes no sense as you need to have identical measurement processes.
The whole argument is idiotic at best!
Those sorts of "argument" are getting people elected/prominence in many countries at present. Dismissing them as "idiotic" is foolhardy in the extreme. Sticking heads in the sand and hoping they will go away will lead to very unsavoury things IMO - if we think those "blaming" immigrants are racist, wait until the truly right wing types get some power because people's arguments were ignored.Also, as example with this rape thing, people are taking the data that is available and then trying to compare it to other datasets which makes no sense as you need to have identical measurement processes.
The whole argument is idiotic at best!
The way to combat this sort of thing is to answer it crisply with cold hard data. Explain that per capita immigrants cause less issues than the indigenous. Explain unemployment levels vv immigration. Explain how economically all immigrants are "a good thing". Directly approach the issue suggested - show that there is no correlation or causation (preferably) between immigration and social issues.
Do that and you take the wind out of the sails of those arguing. Ignoring it will lead to trouble.
(I've not see what you're referring to on rape data I think...)
Oceanic said:
paulrockliffe said:
And, as a wider question, why is that not news the same way Trump's attempt to limit migration is?
Becuase Trump is basing who enters the country based on religion/heritage. Note also that his order was to restrict movement until his border control people could sort out proper mechanisms to assess applications. I fail to see how anyone can see that as a bad thing.
jjlynn27 said:
Oceanic said:
Why doesn't that surprise me!!
All this fuss about Sweden when there really isn't much happening here at all, it just took President Fart to open his mouth. I don't know why the world is not looking at the gun crime and murder rates in the USA really, far worser situation in reality.
I've spoken last night with my old prof from Sweden, and in his opinion, yes, they do have issues, but it's nowhere near as bad as being reported by some 'media'. In his view, people see what they want to see, people who were moaning about immigration from Balkans in the 90s, now moan about Muslims. All this fuss about Sweden when there really isn't much happening here at all, it just took President Fart to open his mouth. I don't know why the world is not looking at the gun crime and murder rates in the USA really, far worser situation in reality.
paulrockliffe said:
Oceanic said:
I don't think it is a scenario that needs to be an area of concern right now, migration to Sweden has dropped considerably in the last 12 months and seems to be slowing further. Certainly nothing like 2015!
On the one hand you're arguing that there isn't a significant problem, on the other you're pointing out that the Government took unprecedented measures to reduce the flow of migration.Why did they do that if there wasn't a significant problem?
And, as a wider question, why is that not news the same way Trump's attempt to limit migration is?
Oceanic said:
paulrockliffe said:
And, as a wider question, why is that not news the same way Trump's attempt to limit migration is?
Becuase Trump is basing who enters the country based on religion/heritage. They just happen to be Islamic countries.
He said many times that if they provide the info, they'll come off the ban list (created by the previous administrtion).
irocfan said:
jjlynn27 said:
Oceanic said:
Why doesn't that surprise me!!
All this fuss about Sweden when there really isn't much happening here at all, it just took President Fart to open his mouth. I don't know why the world is not looking at the gun crime and murder rates in the USA really, far worser situation in reality.
I've spoken last night with my old prof from Sweden, and in his opinion, yes, they do have issues, but it's nowhere near as bad as being reported by some 'media'. In his view, people see what they want to see, people who were moaning about immigration from Balkans in the 90s, now moan about Muslims. All this fuss about Sweden when there really isn't much happening here at all, it just took President Fart to open his mouth. I don't know why the world is not looking at the gun crime and murder rates in the USA really, far worser situation in reality.
The person that I spoke to is one of the most level-headed people that I've ever met. Would I take his view over anything that I'd read in papers? Every time.
Funkycoldribena said:
How is it a silly comparison?
The blokes had first hand experience for 47 years on the front line,you have 4 probably tucked away from certain areas and say everything's hunky dory.I'm sensing denial.
I did not say things were hunky dory, but we don't really know where this guys is coming from. He could be an SD supporter as an example. The blokes had first hand experience for 47 years on the front line,you have 4 probably tucked away from certain areas and say everything's hunky dory.I'm sensing denial.
My eyes are wide open to what goes on here, I'm in Gothenburg BTW!
Oceanic said:
Funkycoldribena said:
How is it a silly comparison?
The blokes had first hand experience for 47 years on the front line,you have 4 probably tucked away from certain areas and say everything's hunky dory.I'm sensing denial.
I did not say things were hunky dory, but we don't really know where this guys is coming from. He could be an SD supporter as an example. The blokes had first hand experience for 47 years on the front line,you have 4 probably tucked away from certain areas and say everything's hunky dory.I'm sensing denial.
My eyes are wide open to what goes on here, I'm in Gothenburg BTW!
NRS said:
Presumably if everything was as bad as some of the posts on here then the entire police force would be up in arms about it, not just 1 or 2 policemen (no matter how experienced)?
The police are not happy and are demoralised generally, but this is more to do with the lack of funding generally and the low salaries. The last time I needed to call the police I was told there was only one police car in the whole of Halland (an area bigger than Hampshire!). I actually happen to know something about this. I've had a specialist collecting hobby for many years. This has brought me into contact with people I would not normally know, or meet.
One of these people is a senior figure in the administration in Stockholm. I cannot recall how the subject came up, but He told me last year, in a telephone conversation, that yes, there has been a huge rise in rape cases, and, that much of that rise has been perpetrated by relatively recent immigrants to the country, primarily of African origin.
This, initially when a pattern emerged was being openlly being spoke of, however,big booted national government trod on local toes to stifle such knowledge. Apparently a number of people have been told to keep quiet if they want to keep their positions. My friend is quite worried about it all, in fact he's very worried, but there is little he can do. He's still a good few years away from retirement.
One of these people is a senior figure in the administration in Stockholm. I cannot recall how the subject came up, but He told me last year, in a telephone conversation, that yes, there has been a huge rise in rape cases, and, that much of that rise has been perpetrated by relatively recent immigrants to the country, primarily of African origin.
This, initially when a pattern emerged was being openlly being spoke of, however,big booted national government trod on local toes to stifle such knowledge. Apparently a number of people have been told to keep quiet if they want to keep their positions. My friend is quite worried about it all, in fact he's very worried, but there is little he can do. He's still a good few years away from retirement.
Simply put, Sweden isn't like Basra or Aleppo, but it isn't the Shangri-La that the media and government are making it out to be either. There are huge problems and they have pretty much been ignored until now.
In the news last night the minister in charge was talking about making the, so far time limited toughened immigration rules permanent, then he went on talking about putting criminal youths under house arrest with tags and if that doesn't work out then prison next.
That is a enormous step for a Swedish minister, to go from total denial to actually talking about solutions to issues at hand in a week.
In the news last night the minister in charge was talking about making the, so far time limited toughened immigration rules permanent, then he went on talking about putting criminal youths under house arrest with tags and if that doesn't work out then prison next.
That is a enormous step for a Swedish minister, to go from total denial to actually talking about solutions to issues at hand in a week.
Oceanic said:
NRS said:
Presumably if everything was as bad as some of the posts on here then the entire police force would be up in arms about it, not just 1 or 2 policemen (no matter how experienced)?
The police are not happy and are demoralised generally, but this is more to do with the lack of funding generally and the low salaries. The last time I needed to call the police I was told there was only one police car in the whole of Halland (an area bigger than Hampshire!). BrabusMog said:
Oceanic said:
NRS said:
Presumably if everything was as bad as some of the posts on here then the entire police force would be up in arms about it, not just 1 or 2 policemen (no matter how experienced)?
The police are not happy and are demoralised generally, but this is more to do with the lack of funding generally and the low salaries. The last time I needed to call the police I was told there was only one police car in the whole of Halland (an area bigger than Hampshire!). Murph7355 said:
Hosenbugler said:
...I've had a specialist collecting hobby for many years. ...
Off topic, but I don't think you could have made that sound more sinister if you tried - I now have a vision of you with a drawer full of catalogued femurs or something 
To be serious , it is actually a specialist hobby, I would not specify what it is, as it could easily identify my friend.
Oceanic said:
jjlynn27 said:
I've spoken last night with my old prof from Sweden, and in his opinion, yes, they do have issues, but it's nowhere near as bad as being reported by some 'media'. In his view, people see what they want to see, people who were moaning about immigration from Balkans in the 90s, now moan about Muslims.
It's exactly as you put it. The people with an "agenda" are seeing what they want to see.
Of course we have issues here, but nothing like on the scale you would find in deprived city areas in the UK or US, overall things run pretty smoothly and given we have accepted 160,000 migrants in one year I think it has actually gone pretty smoothly. Sure there are those on both sides of the political spectrum who want to create a fuss.
Trump putting the spotlight on Sweden was quite comical to me.
Finlandia said:
The riot in Rinkeby last week, after the first patrol had to shoot their way out of the situation, it took the police over an hour to enter Rinkeby again, and that is just 15min from the police HQ in Stockholm.
You'll know better than me, but I've been told Rinkeby has always been a dump and it's just now a dump with a largely immigrant population.Oceanic said:
Username888 said:
I could not finish watching that, the man is annoying as hell and has many of his facts wrong. Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff