Can we talk about Sweden for a bit?
Discussion
I agree with your final point and many people have lamented about the "demise" of Sweden in these aspects to me.
And I can only go on what I've seen in the relatively short time I've been here, but I see flags flying absolutely every where and in a much classier fashion that a flag draped out of a council house window that I was used to seeing in the UK.
I still think it's a fantastic country, and one in which I will be proud and happy to raise Children in. I think maybe Swedish people need to recognise that they have now just joined most other European countries level, as outside the tax havens, everyone is having a rough time...
And I can only go on what I've seen in the relatively short time I've been here, but I see flags flying absolutely every where and in a much classier fashion that a flag draped out of a council house window that I was used to seeing in the UK.
I still think it's a fantastic country, and one in which I will be proud and happy to raise Children in. I think maybe Swedish people need to recognise that they have now just joined most other European countries level, as outside the tax havens, everyone is having a rough time...
Maybe it's because your average Brit is content about his nation's place in the World? We don't need to constantly remind ourselves that we 'owned' enormous tracts of the planet, that we were the first to industrialise and that our language is the World's language. That we codified nearly every sport that is played, etc. etc.
We just know. It is inherent within us.
It's the nations who are bit unsure of themselves who tend to shout the loudest and agonise the most, IMO.
We just know. It is inherent within us.
It's the nations who are bit unsure of themselves who tend to shout the loudest and agonise the most, IMO.
I think Blib nailed it there, the Swedes (not all but the majority) are only feeling good about themselves when they can point out how much better than someone else they are.
Especially their neighbours are ridiculed and seen as poor wannabees of the mighty Sweden, but others get their fair share too, the American healthcare is taken as an example of horror and the poor standard of living in the UK is brought up by people never having been there every time I mention my years living there.
Especially their neighbours are ridiculed and seen as poor wannabees of the mighty Sweden, but others get their fair share too, the American healthcare is taken as an example of horror and the poor standard of living in the UK is brought up by people never having been there every time I mention my years living there.
AJS- said:
Sweden has an identity, but many in charge seem to hate it.
It's not a country I've visited or know much about, so I guess I've always had a sort of cliched image of it defined by Volvo and Ikea - sort of cleanly functional, friendly and inhabited by the descendents of those Vikings who were waiting for SIPS and airbags before they would get in a long boat. Mild mannered decent people with firm hand shakes. I've always gravitated towards more chaotic countries, but it looks like I'm missing out on an epic shambles there.
I know many on the British left have always looked to Sweden (and other Nordic countries) as a sort of proof that social democracy can work well. It seems they were as wrong as I suspected.
But how did this happen historically? At what point did Sweden decide it was going to take this form of liberalism to such an insane extreme? What is it about Swedish national identity that they hate so much?
Was this road to hell ever really paved with good intentions? Or was it national suicide from the start?
I've Googled it a bit but seem to either end up on white supremacist blogs.
To my knowledge it started in 1975 with Olof Palme. He put a bill ( 1975:26) through parliament, the gist of which was that Sweden was to become multicultural. To quote, 'immigrants and minorities should be given opportunities to choose the extent to which they want to assimilate into the Swedish cultural identity or retain and develop their primary identity'.It's not a country I've visited or know much about, so I guess I've always had a sort of cliched image of it defined by Volvo and Ikea - sort of cleanly functional, friendly and inhabited by the descendents of those Vikings who were waiting for SIPS and airbags before they would get in a long boat. Mild mannered decent people with firm hand shakes. I've always gravitated towards more chaotic countries, but it looks like I'm missing out on an epic shambles there.
I know many on the British left have always looked to Sweden (and other Nordic countries) as a sort of proof that social democracy can work well. It seems they were as wrong as I suspected.
But how did this happen historically? At what point did Sweden decide it was going to take this form of liberalism to such an insane extreme? What is it about Swedish national identity that they hate so much?
Was this road to hell ever really paved with good intentions? Or was it national suicide from the start?
I've Googled it a bit but seem to either end up on white supremacist blogs.
In practical terms it meant that, for example, children of immigrants had 'parental tongue' lessons. I myself spent the first two years of school in an all-Finnish class in an otherwise Swedish school, being taught in Finnish. It was only in the third year that we were finally transferred to a normal class, and that was mostly due to money being tight. I'm sure Finlandia has similar experiences.
I'm not entirely sure when it all started accelerating toward the insane, but my best bet would be roundabout 1997 when Göran Persson (another bloody Social Democrat) put another bill through parliament titled 'Sweden, the future and diversity' ( 1997/98:16). In it, it is established that cultural diversity should be the benchmark for government policy on all levels and in all areas. More importantly however, it explicitly states that it should be the mortar that holds society together.
Historically what has held this country together is its fraternal social fabric. In a word, ' folkhemmet' or 'the people's home'. It's the very concept that the Social Democratic party is built upon - the notion that the entire country should be like a small, tightly-knit family where everyone contributes and takes care of eachother. That's not just a political excuse to raise taxes and build welfare states, but a distinctly Scandinavian cultural trait facilitated by small, homogenous populations and a high level of social cohesion.
And that I believe, to finally answer your question, is why we seem to suffer from such limitless self-loathing. At the very core of Swedish civilisation is an inherent quality passed down through the generations that, for all its good, is by virtue of the Social Democratic influence of the last 100 years also intrinsically linked to horrors such as 'The State Institute for Racial Biology' and forced sterilisations to keep the population homogenous and free from undesirable elements. Much like the Germans are still reeling from their past, so too are Swedish socialists. It's as if the Social Democrats bottled our national spirit and took it to its logical (albeit extreme) political conclusion. Therefore, in the great socialist tradition of progressiveness, it must be eliminated - including themselves.
That Fredrik Reinfeldt, our last PM, flipped the tables on the left and forced them to turn their insanity up to 11 (as per the situation we're in today) is almost a funny parenthesis in the grand scheme of things.
Sorry about the history lesson!
Edited by Looket on Wednesday 16th September 06:26
Edited by Looket on Wednesday 16th September 09:00
BrabusMog said:
Looket, I know you are severely disillusioned with Sweden but to say there is no national identity is preposterous.
Of course there is a Swedish identity. I was merely expressing what is being shoved down our throats by politicians and media. I'm not just making it up. See my above post for reference. You already know what the political landscape looks like. But did you also know, that in 2012, 41% of journalists supported the Green Party, 15% the Left Party and 14% the Social Democrats? At Sveriges Radio (BBC Radio equivalent) 54% supported the Green Party, and at SVT (BBC) the same figure was 52%.
I can guarantee you that those numbers have not got more balanced since then. That's not exactly a safeguard against unbiased reporting. Most newspapers are open about writing 'agenda shaping' pieces. Guess what the agenda is when damn near all journalists are left-wing extremists?
Yes, Swedes are proud of themselves and their country. They're proud about their openness, about their industriousness and about their general dominance in all things welfare, pop music, Volvo, IKEA and H&M. That's not at issue here. Nor is celebrating traditions that no one really remembers the meaning of anyway. However, ask a Swede to celebrate his country and his heritage and he'll get awfully quiet awfully fast. Not because he doesn't want to celebrate those things, but because he's been told in no uncertain terms that those things are ugly.
I clearly remember, growing up, how on the last day of school every summer the entire school (including parents) gathered outside to sit on the grass to sing the national anthem while flying the Swedish flag. Not so much anymore. And since the 'racist conspiracy theorists' have pointed this out, we're told we never sang the national anthem on the last day of school. We only sang Den blomstertid nu kommer (we sang that too) and honestly, is flying the flag such a big deal anyway?
As I said previously, cultural diversity (or rather, multiculturalism) is the foundation for all policy. It takes precedent whatever the issue. I appreciate I sound like a nutter of the highest order, but you only have to have a quick glance at the links I provided above. And to those ends, any exhibition of national pride beyond the most superficial appreciation of our national achievements is counter-productive to the cultural diversity cause.
The sad thing is that the only reason Swedes accept this treatment of themselves, is precisely because of their culture. The very same culture they're told to despise. Their fear of confrontation and their desire to comply with consensus is why they lap it up and keep their traps firmly shut.
I'm glad that you like Sweden, but for the sake of your children I can only hope that you keep a door open to the UK. There have been suggestions that the 'free-school' policy should be scrapped and that privileged Swedish children should be sent to immigrant dominated no-hope schools and vice-versa to aid integration. If it comes to that or anything close to that it may be wise to start contemplating a move. As things currently stand, I'm saddened to say, I'm of the firm conviction that there is absolutely no future in Sweden for any potential offspring of mine.
No apology needed, it's very interesting. And quite alarming.
Basically a massive over-reaction to the past. It sounds like an extreme form of something that exists everywhere in the western world and especially Europe. I would love to know more about where this sort of self-loathing and perhaps even masochistic fetish for national suicide comes from.
Basically a massive over-reaction to the past. It sounds like an extreme form of something that exists everywhere in the western world and especially Europe. I would love to know more about where this sort of self-loathing and perhaps even masochistic fetish for national suicide comes from.
I find this thread very interesting, but also disturbing.
I don't know Sweden, but I do recognise self-loathing. Quite how it has gained so much appreciation is a mystery, unless the adherents were indoctrinated behind closed doors.
I think there's a large part of this ideology in many societies, particularly here in the 'West' where we've 'got' everything and other countries have somehow missed out, leaving them with scraps from our (overflowing) table. Probably because through series of random events we have been born in these lands of plenty where it's been easy, whereas the less fortunate have to toil in marginal soils under a harsh sun, fighting against tropical forests or wilderness.
Therefore it is only just that we make way for the less fortunate and share our riches. Be that our houses, education, healthcare, employment and our pensions. Only fair, you see?
I don't know Sweden, but I do recognise self-loathing. Quite how it has gained so much appreciation is a mystery, unless the adherents were indoctrinated behind closed doors.
I think there's a large part of this ideology in many societies, particularly here in the 'West' where we've 'got' everything and other countries have somehow missed out, leaving them with scraps from our (overflowing) table. Probably because through series of random events we have been born in these lands of plenty where it's been easy, whereas the less fortunate have to toil in marginal soils under a harsh sun, fighting against tropical forests or wilderness.
Therefore it is only just that we make way for the less fortunate and share our riches. Be that our houses, education, healthcare, employment and our pensions. Only fair, you see?
Looket said:
I'm sure Finlandia has similar experiences.
I'm from the other side of the coin, I grew up as a Swedish speaker in Finland (one could argue that the Swedish speaking part of Finland is the last remaining part of the real Sweden), went to an all Swedish school and as all Swedish speakers in Finland, I idolized Sweden.When I moved to Sweden after having finished my education, I was greeted by a country that I didn't feel a part of or belong in, so I upped again and moved to the UK, and immediately felt at home in a way I had never felt before. Met my (Swedish) better half while working at Gatwick, eventually her parents got ill back in Sweden, and as they didn't receive the care they needed we saw no other way but to move to Sweden again to care for them and stand up for their rights.
We will be leaving Sweden again, when we can.
Finlandia said:
BrabusMog said:
Looket, I know you are severely disillusioned with Sweden but to say there is no national identity is preposterous.
But there is not allowed to be any national identity, ever since SD came into the light everything Swedish is essentially from somewhere else. I work for a very large company that is UK/Swedish and the Swedish identity in the company is strong and part of what makes it a great place to work at.
I'm really saddened to see what's happening to Sweden - our long-term plans were to retire there.
AJS- said:
No apology needed, it's very interesting. And quite alarming.
Basically a massive over-reaction to the past. It sounds like an extreme form of something that exists everywhere in the western world and especially Europe. I would love to know more about where this sort of self-loathing and perhaps even masochistic fetish for national suicide comes from.
At a guess, the Germans are to blame.Basically a massive over-reaction to the past. It sounds like an extreme form of something that exists everywhere in the western world and especially Europe. I would love to know more about where this sort of self-loathing and perhaps even masochistic fetish for national suicide comes from.
The '68 movement was particularly successful in Sweden and many of the protesters at the time have reached senior positions in the Swedish establishment. The Social Democratic party HQ is located at 68 Sveavägen for crying out loud!
IainT said:
Most of the Swedes I know (quite a few as I'm married to one) have a really string sense of national identify and great fondness for all the little things that make them Swedish. Then again, most of them don't live in Sweden any more!
I work for a very large company that is UK/Swedish and the Swedish identity in the company is strong and part of what makes it a great place to work at.
I'm really saddened to see what's happening to Sweden - our long-term plans were to retire there.
Ah, yes, the London Swedes who all descend on the Swedish delicatessen in Marylebone to buy knäckebröd and to stock up on Kopparberg and Rekorderlig. And then proceed to boast loudly to all and sundry about the superiority of all things Swedish before listing all Swedish achievements. 'Did you know Skype is a Swedish invention? Oh yes. And that Roxette, The Swedish House Mafia and Avicii are all Swedish artists? Mmmm-hmmm. Oh, by the way, that coat you're wearing is by Hennes and Mauritz. How do I know what H&M stands for? They're Swedish don't you know! Did I mention I'm Swedish?'I work for a very large company that is UK/Swedish and the Swedish identity in the company is strong and part of what makes it a great place to work at.
I'm really saddened to see what's happening to Sweden - our long-term plans were to retire there.
I think it's some kind of psychological escape valve with a bit of a culture shock thrown in. The Brits are quite openly proud to be British, so why not join in on the fun of a bit of patriotism? Except the Swedes have been so henpecked for so long that it tends to go a bit overboard. I'm embarrassed to say I've been guilty of it myself - when I first moved over to the UK I found myself in the middle of a rant about the British obsession with ketchup and mayonnaise while boasting about my Swedish healthy ways when I was politely told to feck off or shut up. I took the hint.
Edited by Looket on Wednesday 16th September 10:22
Edited by Looket on Wednesday 16th September 10:23
Looket said:
Ah, yes, the London Swedes who all descend on the Swedish delicatessen in Marylebone to buy knäckebröd and to stock up on Kopparberg and Rekorderlig. And then proceed to boast loudly to all and sundry about the superiority of all things Swedish before listing all Swedish achievements. 'Did you know Skype is a Swedish invention? Oh yes. And that Roxette, The Swedish House Mafia and Avicii are all Swedish artists? Mmmm-hmmm. Oh, by the way, that coat you're wearing is by Hennes and Mauritz. How do I know what H&M stands for? They're Swedish don't you know! Did I mention I'm Swedish?'
I think it's some kind of psychological escape valve with a bit of a culture shock thrown in. The Brits are quite openly proud to be British, so why not join in on the fun of a bit of patriotism? Except the Swedes have been so henpecked for so long that it tends to go a bit overboard. I'm embarrassed to say I've been guilty of it myself - when I first moved over to the UK I found myself in the middle of a rant about the British obsession with ketchup and mayonnaise while boasting about my Swedish healthy ways when I was politely told to feck off or shut up. I took the hint.
Thankfully not London any more although the Swedes in our circles back then were largely unpretentious about their Swedishness. Usually us Brits are as bad if not worse when living and working abroad - "look at those funny foreigners and their quaint ways!".I think it's some kind of psychological escape valve with a bit of a culture shock thrown in. The Brits are quite openly proud to be British, so why not join in on the fun of a bit of patriotism? Except the Swedes have been so henpecked for so long that it tends to go a bit overboard. I'm embarrassed to say I've been guilty of it myself - when I first moved over to the UK I found myself in the middle of a rant about the British obsession with ketchup and mayonnaise while boasting about my Swedish healthy ways when I was politely told to feck off or shut up. I took the hint.
Thinking aloud and I know it will sound strange but I have a suspicion that this whole self-destruct thing is a sort of sexual fetish borne of feminism being too successful. It seems like these countries are run by the nagging liberal wives of more conservative and level headed men, and by the gimpy cheerleaders who think supporting this idiocy will earn them favour. I've seen couples like this, the wife sets up endless direct debits to worthy causes, and let waifs and strays stay in the spare room. They go on fad diets and buy expensive exercise equipment which remians unused. They nag and chastise and blame their long suffering husband for all their frustrations while expecting him to pay for it all. Maybe she yearns for a more assertive and exciting, and is prepared to risk her comfortable life to get it. The more she meets little or no resistance from the husband the harder she pushes.
You know she'll end up cheating on him and leaving him, and maybe you even try to warn him, but the whole thing is too much trouble so he let's it slide. And slide, and slide.
I'm obviously thinking of a couple of specific circumstances here, but I wonder if there's something to this as a wider trend.
You know she'll end up cheating on him and leaving him, and maybe you even try to warn him, but the whole thing is too much trouble so he let's it slide. And slide, and slide.
I'm obviously thinking of a couple of specific circumstances here, but I wonder if there's something to this as a wider trend.
IainT said:
Looket said:
Ah, yes, the London Swedes who all descend on the Swedish delicatessen in Marylebone to buy knäckebröd and to stock up on Kopparberg and Rekorderlig. And then proceed to boast loudly to all and sundry about the superiority of all things Swedish before listing all Swedish achievements. 'Did you know Skype is a Swedish invention? Oh yes. And that Roxette, The Swedish House Mafia and Avicii are all Swedish artists? Mmmm-hmmm. Oh, by the way, that coat you're wearing is by Hennes and Mauritz. How do I know what H&M stands for? They're Swedish don't you know! Did I mention I'm Swedish?'
I think it's some kind of psychological escape valve with a bit of a culture shock thrown in. The Brits are quite openly proud to be British, so why not join in on the fun of a bit of patriotism? Except the Swedes have been so henpecked for so long that it tends to go a bit overboard. I'm embarrassed to say I've been guilty of it myself - when I first moved over to the UK I found myself in the middle of a rant about the British obsession with ketchup and mayonnaise while boasting about my Swedish healthy ways when I was politely told to feck off or shut up. I took the hint.
Thankfully not London any more although the Swedes in our circles back then were largely unpretentious about their Swedishness. Usually us Brits are as bad if not worse when living and working abroad - "look at those funny foreigners and their quaint ways!".I think it's some kind of psychological escape valve with a bit of a culture shock thrown in. The Brits are quite openly proud to be British, so why not join in on the fun of a bit of patriotism? Except the Swedes have been so henpecked for so long that it tends to go a bit overboard. I'm embarrassed to say I've been guilty of it myself - when I first moved over to the UK I found myself in the middle of a rant about the British obsession with ketchup and mayonnaise while boasting about my Swedish healthy ways when I was politely told to feck off or shut up. I took the hint.
Looket, I can't help but think about a phrase my dad has used a few times in my Life when giving advice; the grass isn't Always greener on the other side...
Looket said:
I'm glad that you like Sweden, but for the sake of your children I can only hope that you keep a door open to the UK. There have been suggestions that the 'free-school' policy should be scrapped and that privileged Swedish children should be sent to immigrant dominated no-hope schools and vice-versa to aid integration. If it comes to that or anything close to that it may be wise to start contemplating a move. As things currently stand, I'm saddened to say, I'm of the firm conviction that there is absolutely no future in Sweden for any potential offspring of mine.
I missed this, it'sbeen a very busy morning... I help to run a family business, so I'll Always have a foot in the UK, modern technology means I only need to be in the office for a maximum of 1 week out of each 4-weekly sales period. Our plan is to have Children, school them in Sweden up to University level and then they are free to make their choice. We will Always have the house in London, unless someone makes me a very generous offer but I highly doubt they would.
Part of my rationale for this is that I don't want to private school one or two kids in London, and I also wouldn't want them to go to an inner city state school, and I also wouldn't want to live in a provincial Town outside of the capital just so the kids can be safe in school. I have heard, and witnessed, nothing but brilliant things about Swedish education.
I also disagree on some parts of what you say about housing. Yes, I understand that if you want an apartment in the centre of Stockholm or Göteborg you will need to be registered before birth, but if my kids want to move out at 18 in Sweden it's a lot more realistic a proposition than it would be in the UK. My fiance's younger sister recently took an apartment after registering herself a month previously and pays rent, inc all bills apart from electricity for nearly half the price of what a room in London/the South East would cost. It's uncommon around here for kids to be with their parents after 21, you have to go over 30 years of age in the UK until you can expect the kids to be gone nowadays!
I fully appreciate that you've been here a lot longer than I have, in fact you've grown up here. So perhaps I focus on the positives a lot more than the negatives. I just don't Think the situation is as drastic as you make out, yes there are problems, just like EVERY country in the World.
Esseesse said:
AJS... did you read fate of empires?
I did, fairly recently. Interesting book. Don't remember any mention of a specifically masochistic streak though. Seemed to poibt more towards a general bloating and inefficiency after several generations. Which I guess also applies here.BrabusMog said:
don't forget Spotify, that's Swedish too.
Looket, I can't help but think about a phrase my dad has used a few times in my Life when giving advice; the grass isn't Always greener on the other side...
How could I forget Spotify? Shame on me! Looket, I can't help but think about a phrase my dad has used a few times in my Life when giving advice; the grass isn't Always greener on the other side...
As for green grass I'm well aware of the vast range of issues facing the UK, yet in my opinion it's still a far better place to live and raise a family. I realise I come across as an alarmist nutter with a particularly bad case of tin-foiled rose-tinted-glassinitis, but all I'm trying to do is document the insanity. Because that's exactly what this country has descended into. Total, utter madness. Even I have a hard time believing half the s
t I write in this thread but sadly I don't think I've written anything that can't be substantiated, and if I have I would be absolutely delighted - nay, ecstatic! - to be proven wrong. EDIT: Got busy while writing this, so didn't see your new post. Fair enough about your SIL. I understand the situation is different outside the major cities, however there does exist a very real housing shortage and nowhere near enough new stock is being built to meet current demand let alone future demand. Last time I checked the solution was to build stacked container villages, now it's to allocate the rental market to immigrants. The point being, it's probably not going to get much better any time soon.
As for Swedish education, it's in free fall by any possible metric. Have a look at the trajectory in the PISA rankings. Consider the fact that the prime minister just last week said that they should probably exclude immigrants from the statistics because they are so hopelessly behind the learning curve. Then think about whether you'd like your children to be placed in their schools to build cultural bridges, as has been discussed recently.
Edited by Looket on Wednesday 16th September 13:27
Looket said:
Ah, yes, the London Swedes who all descend on the Swedish delicatessen in Marylebone to buy knäckebröd and to stock up on Kopparberg and Rekorderlig. And then proceed to boast loudly to all and sundry about the superiority of all things Swedish before listing all Swedish achievements. 'Did you know Skype is a Swedish invention? Oh yes. And that Roxette, The Swedish House Mafia and Avicii are all Swedish artists? Mmmm-hmmm. Oh, by the way, that coat you're wearing is by Hennes and Mauritz. How do I know what H&M stands for? They're Swedish don't you know! Did I mention I'm Swedish?'
I think it's some kind of psychological escape valve with a bit of a culture shock thrown in. The Brits are quite openly proud to be British, so why not join in on the fun of a bit of patriotism? Except the Swedes have been so henpecked for so long that it tends to go a bit overboard. I'm embarrassed to say I've been guilty of it myself - when I first moved over to the UK I found myself in the middle of a rant about the British obsession with ketchup and mayonnaise while boasting about my Swedish healthy ways when I was politely told to feck off or shut up. I took the hint.
I think it's some kind of psychological escape valve with a bit of a culture shock thrown in. The Brits are quite openly proud to be British, so why not join in on the fun of a bit of patriotism? Except the Swedes have been so henpecked for so long that it tends to go a bit overboard. I'm embarrassed to say I've been guilty of it myself - when I first moved over to the UK I found myself in the middle of a rant about the British obsession with ketchup and mayonnaise while boasting about my Swedish healthy ways when I was politely told to feck off or shut up. I took the hint.
I think it's the in-built directive of any human when moving to another area to 'level-up' in respect of their homeland, in the case of Scousers this is a +5 level-up.
Looket said:
How could I forget Spotify? Shame on me!
As for green grass I'm well aware of the vast range of issues facing the UK, yet in my opinion it's still a far better place to live and raise a family.
I think that really does depend on where you live in the UK and Sweden, I moved from the UK a nice area by all accounts but feel where I live here in Sweden is probably a better place to raise a family.As for green grass I'm well aware of the vast range of issues facing the UK, yet in my opinion it's still a far better place to live and raise a family.
Edited by Looket on Wednesday 16th September 13:27
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