Can we talk about Sweden for a bit?
Discussion
AJS- said:
Dandarez
I saw an Evante in a garage once gathering dust, not so far from where they were made. Quite a neat little thing, and apparently technically ahead of its time.
Interesting stuff re cancer. I generally reject conspiracy theories as applying Occam's razor, there's usually a more simple explanation which answers. However when there's that much money flying around anything is possible.
I think the mistake Bat Ye'or made was emphasising the French led Euro-Arab dialogue too much as a sort of shadowy organisation pulling the strings, when it was really just a parliamentary sub-committee of some sort. However she got the direction of travel spot on.
It seems like more of a sub-conscious "conspiracy" brought about by a sort of cultural collapse across the west, but especially in Europe. As a culture or civilisation we seem to have made the ultimate error somewhere and are unable or unwilling to perpetuate ourselves. We have negligible birth rates, huge youth unemployment, pension and welfare liabilities that we really can't hope to cover, and a society that is aging rapidly. We're culturally in Shakespeare's 6th age of man "the lean and slippered pantaloon, With spectacles on nose and pouch on side, His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide, For his shrunk shank, and his big manly voice,"
Set against this you have the Muslim world with a strong cultural identity producing people at a huge rate. And (I'll bang my drum again) it has an aggressive, expansionist ethos, and looks jealously at the wealth and stability of Europe. "Then, a soldier, Full of strange oaths, and bearded like the pard, Jealous in honour, sudden, and quick in quarrel, Seeking the bubble reputation, Even in the cannon's mouth."
There's no machiavellian force orchestrating it all, just a collective refusal to repel it or even acknowledge it for what it is, and the rejection of our own historic cultural identity without replacing it with anything new. Perhaps even a sense of envy that they have a youthful and growing culture, even if we dislike every particular of it. Liberal democracy was never really inspiring so much as comfortable.
Even the aggressive nature of much of the Islamic world doesn't really deter this 'logic.' The whole European Union project is about creating peace and stability through uniting disparate people in one entity, so why then resist uniting with another entity as a way of creating peace and harmony? If that means some compromises along the way so be it. To the post-Christian moral relativist there's nothing sacrosanct or inherently better about western liberal democracy, and there are no set boundaries as to what it can accommodate or compromise on. It's all just a matter of expedience.
As a heartless right winger I would be happy to treat the current situation as an invasion and repel it very robustly with all the force necessary to show that we will not accept illegal jumping of our borders. In the longer term though Europe needs to be self-sustaining and it needs to be willing to defend itself.
What a ramble. Want me to write a book on it? haha
Good post. Hard to disagree.I saw an Evante in a garage once gathering dust, not so far from where they were made. Quite a neat little thing, and apparently technically ahead of its time.
Interesting stuff re cancer. I generally reject conspiracy theories as applying Occam's razor, there's usually a more simple explanation which answers. However when there's that much money flying around anything is possible.
I think the mistake Bat Ye'or made was emphasising the French led Euro-Arab dialogue too much as a sort of shadowy organisation pulling the strings, when it was really just a parliamentary sub-committee of some sort. However she got the direction of travel spot on.
It seems like more of a sub-conscious "conspiracy" brought about by a sort of cultural collapse across the west, but especially in Europe. As a culture or civilisation we seem to have made the ultimate error somewhere and are unable or unwilling to perpetuate ourselves. We have negligible birth rates, huge youth unemployment, pension and welfare liabilities that we really can't hope to cover, and a society that is aging rapidly. We're culturally in Shakespeare's 6th age of man "the lean and slippered pantaloon, With spectacles on nose and pouch on side, His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide, For his shrunk shank, and his big manly voice,"
Set against this you have the Muslim world with a strong cultural identity producing people at a huge rate. And (I'll bang my drum again) it has an aggressive, expansionist ethos, and looks jealously at the wealth and stability of Europe. "Then, a soldier, Full of strange oaths, and bearded like the pard, Jealous in honour, sudden, and quick in quarrel, Seeking the bubble reputation, Even in the cannon's mouth."
There's no machiavellian force orchestrating it all, just a collective refusal to repel it or even acknowledge it for what it is, and the rejection of our own historic cultural identity without replacing it with anything new. Perhaps even a sense of envy that they have a youthful and growing culture, even if we dislike every particular of it. Liberal democracy was never really inspiring so much as comfortable.
Even the aggressive nature of much of the Islamic world doesn't really deter this 'logic.' The whole European Union project is about creating peace and stability through uniting disparate people in one entity, so why then resist uniting with another entity as a way of creating peace and harmony? If that means some compromises along the way so be it. To the post-Christian moral relativist there's nothing sacrosanct or inherently better about western liberal democracy, and there are no set boundaries as to what it can accommodate or compromise on. It's all just a matter of expedience.
As a heartless right winger I would be happy to treat the current situation as an invasion and repel it very robustly with all the force necessary to show that we will not accept illegal jumping of our borders. In the longer term though Europe needs to be self-sustaining and it needs to be willing to defend itself.
What a ramble. Want me to write a book on it? haha
There's something about the later 20C intelligentsia becoming so self-loathing they almost wish Western society would end, either through worker revolution or other bloody means. Certainly they disdain it and cannot see the point in defending the indefensible. Hence the backing for equality at any price, including willing destruction of the unborn on an industrial scale (aka women's choice over her body) and moral equivalence with everything.
Sweden seems to be the test lab.
Woman attacked yesterday by 5 or 6 men in the centre of town at 5am.
End of article says "being treated as attempted robbery"
You gotta admit these libtards have a sense of humour.
No descriptions obviously.
This is a good one.
Woman goes on a virtue signalling outburst.
Then an asylum centre opens next to her stable and it closes down and she sues the council.
VS`is expressing your amazing levels of world love and whilst casting aspersions on anyone not equally luvey.
So first a long rant on that, then suddenly an about face when faced with reality. And now the FB page "the internet never forgets" is hanging her by her hypocrisy. kSome hilarious comments.
So first a long rant on that, then suddenly an about face when faced with reality. And now the FB page "the internet never forgets" is hanging her by her hypocrisy. kSome hilarious comments.
Pesty said:
Can you elaborate on the last one? Virtue signaling?
Quick and dirty translation:
"That people still, in 2015, share all kinds of stuff, especially from racist and nazi propaganda sites is a mystery to me. How can you lack all forms of source criticism or critical thinking before spreading crap? What's wrong with you??
I'm so f
king tired of all the hate, xenophobia, jealousy, resentment, all the character traits that make a person uncomfortable! You should be bloody ashamed of behaving like that. Is it strange that children and youths gain warped world views when their role models are hateful and green with envy?
I really am in world mourning because there are so many atrocities everywhere. But you that live here, in the land of 'lagom' - yes, you, the average Joe Bloggs, you. You, that hate and are full of resentment, yes, you. It's you that make me the most sad. There's no f
king hope for the future in this country with so much hate and jealousy reeking from each man's living room. Tolerance, humility and helpfulness etc - where did they go?"
Looket said:
Pesty said:
Can you elaborate on the last one? Virtue signaling?
Quick and dirty translation:
"That people still, in 2015, share all kinds of stuff, especially from racist and nazi propaganda sites is a mystery to me. How can you lack all forms of source criticism or critical thinking before spreading crap? What's wrong with you??
I'm so f
king tired of all the hate, xenophobia, jealousy, resentment, all the character traits that make a person uncomfortable! You should be bloody ashamed of behaving like that. Is it strange that children and youths gain warped world views when their role models are hateful and green with envy?
I really am in world mourning because there are so many atrocities everywhere. But you that live here, in the land of 'lagom' - yes, you, the average Joe Bloggs, you. You, that hate and are full of resentment, yes, you. It's you that make me the most sad. There's no f
king hope for the future in this country with so much hate and jealousy reeking from each man's living room. Tolerance, humility and helpfulness etc - where did they go?"
JagLover
Very succinct way of saying what took me so long!
I do think in a way our low birth rates are overblown though. A TFR of 1.5 is below replacement rate, but it's not necessarily distributed in that way. It's actually steady state for about 75% of the population. A walk up any high street will tell you that there are plenty of families with 2 or 3 kids. So rather than looking at a constant slide into oblivion I believe we're looking at a population reduction of around 25%, so taking the UK to 45 million over the next few decades. It's really just the first time in history that birth control has been economically, medically and socially possible for the bulk of the population.
It will mean a very stretched generation supporting the population bubble in their dotage, but need not mean the necessity to import millions more people to make up for the kids we didn't have over the last 20 years.
Essesse
I did read Fate of Empires. It was fascinating, though I don't remember it talking about birth rates a great deal. As above I think this decline could be much better managed, maybe to "decline" to a smaller country, rather than into third world barbarism!
It's hard not to agree about the decline of Christianity. I'm in exactly the same position, and while spiritually I'm an atheist I'm becoming quite fond of calling myself a cultural Christian. Partly just to wind up militant atheists, but more seriously I do think that it's left a cultural and moral vacuum which secular humanism hasn't filled.
I think abortion is awful on the whole, however the trouble with not allowing it is that at best you would end up with the people who were too stupid or irresponsible to use birth control bringing up the next generation. At worst you would end up with dangerous illegal abortions. In reality, probably too much of both.
But you could say the same about the pill, which detached sex from it's most important consequence. But those cats are well and truly out of the bag and I don't think they will ever go back in.
It shouldn't be beyond our wit to organise a society where most people most of the time are not churning out kids they can't support, but are churning out the ones they can. It just takes some long term thought and some difficult decisions.
Don
I think that germ was always there. George Orwell wrote about how many intellectuals in his day hated the idea of England and looked enviously at other countries. France in particular. It's not quite clear why this is, but maybe now their envy has shifted to some other liberal paradise like the Swat Valley or Sudan. After all if you believe that man made global warming is the biggest threat to mankind then stoning and crucifixion are just cultural eccentricities compared with the really nasty stuff like inventing steam engines or reducing infant mortality.
Very succinct way of saying what took me so long!
I do think in a way our low birth rates are overblown though. A TFR of 1.5 is below replacement rate, but it's not necessarily distributed in that way. It's actually steady state for about 75% of the population. A walk up any high street will tell you that there are plenty of families with 2 or 3 kids. So rather than looking at a constant slide into oblivion I believe we're looking at a population reduction of around 25%, so taking the UK to 45 million over the next few decades. It's really just the first time in history that birth control has been economically, medically and socially possible for the bulk of the population.
It will mean a very stretched generation supporting the population bubble in their dotage, but need not mean the necessity to import millions more people to make up for the kids we didn't have over the last 20 years.
Essesse
I did read Fate of Empires. It was fascinating, though I don't remember it talking about birth rates a great deal. As above I think this decline could be much better managed, maybe to "decline" to a smaller country, rather than into third world barbarism!
It's hard not to agree about the decline of Christianity. I'm in exactly the same position, and while spiritually I'm an atheist I'm becoming quite fond of calling myself a cultural Christian. Partly just to wind up militant atheists, but more seriously I do think that it's left a cultural and moral vacuum which secular humanism hasn't filled.
I think abortion is awful on the whole, however the trouble with not allowing it is that at best you would end up with the people who were too stupid or irresponsible to use birth control bringing up the next generation. At worst you would end up with dangerous illegal abortions. In reality, probably too much of both.
But you could say the same about the pill, which detached sex from it's most important consequence. But those cats are well and truly out of the bag and I don't think they will ever go back in.
It shouldn't be beyond our wit to organise a society where most people most of the time are not churning out kids they can't support, but are churning out the ones they can. It just takes some long term thought and some difficult decisions.
Don
I think that germ was always there. George Orwell wrote about how many intellectuals in his day hated the idea of England and looked enviously at other countries. France in particular. It's not quite clear why this is, but maybe now their envy has shifted to some other liberal paradise like the Swat Valley or Sudan. After all if you believe that man made global warming is the biggest threat to mankind then stoning and crucifixion are just cultural eccentricities compared with the really nasty stuff like inventing steam engines or reducing infant mortality.
One More Raceday said:
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See the item here!
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Has anyone found anything else on this?
Prosecutor Emma Berge also produced screen grabs of the accused's Facebook pages where one of them claims to be born in 1997, and the other 1971
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3458329/Tw...
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Also one of them worked as a mechanic in Dubai?
How are they even allowed to pass as 15 or 16 common sense failure of the highest order?
Prosecutor Emma Berge also produced screen grabs of the accused's Facebook pages where one of them claims to be born in 1997, and the other 1971
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3458329/Tw...
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Also one of them worked as a mechanic in Dubai?
How are they even allowed to pass as 15 or 16 common sense failure of the highest order?
AJS- said:
It's hard not to agree about the decline of Christianity. I'm in exactly the same position, and while spiritually I'm an atheist I'm becoming quite fond of calling myself a cultural Christian. Partly just to wind up militant atheists, but more seriously I do think that it's left a cultural and moral vacuum which secular humanism hasn't filled.
I fail to grasp how the decline of Christianity has left a moral vacuum at all. That presupposes that morality is a by-product of religious observance in some way. If anything the world is becoming more moral with the decline in religious belief as we finally have the chance to see things for what they really are rather than what they appear to be when looked at through Christian (beer) goggles.lionelf said:
AJS- said:
It's hard not to agree about the decline of Christianity. I'm in exactly the same position, and while spiritually I'm an atheist I'm becoming quite fond of calling myself a cultural Christian. Partly just to wind up militant atheists, but more seriously I do think that it's left a cultural and moral vacuum which secular humanism hasn't filled.
I fail to grasp how the decline of Christianity has left a moral vacuum at all. That presupposes that morality is a by-product of religious observance in some way. If anything the world is becoming more moral with the decline in religious belief as we finally have the chance to see things for what they really are rather than what they appear to be when looked at through Christian (beer) goggles.Like it or not humans seem to prefer communal endeavours that also confer a sense of belonging - whether it be PH or following West Ham - and when they also 'offer' spiritual and moral guidance it can morph into a way of life, suitable for scaling and open-ended membership (even post mortem).
How is the World becoming 'more moral'? Allowing ISIS to occupy land? Allowing Mugabe to rule until he drops? Funding Wahhabism through oil? Allowing China to build new islands to dominate the SCS? Will further billions of individual people suddenly choose to live in peace and harmony despite their near neighbours having all the cash?
But, any news of Sweden?
lionelf said:
I fail to grasp how the decline of Christianity has left a moral vacuum at all. That presupposes that morality is a by-product of religious observance in some way. If anything the world is becoming more moral with the decline in religious belief as we finally have the chance to see things for what they really are rather than what they appear to be when looked at through Christian (beer) goggles.
It seems to have left a vacuum in precisely in the way that we are seeing unfold in Sweden. Post-Christian societies which lack the moral courage or authority to defend themselves, or hold any principles to be inviolable and absolute. Or even to reproduce itself at a rate required to sustain its economic model. Instead they seem to float in a sea of relativism, clinging only to the false dogma that all people are essentially the same; all cultures are of equal value; all criticism of another culture is racism and all pride in our own is narrow nationalism and ugly.
I am an atheist at heart, and agree with you in one sense that the decline of Christianity gives a great opportunity for a more rational approach to many things. It also throws out some old certainties, which while they may have been false from a rational perspective were at least benign enough to coexist with relatively free open societies. Throwing them out without having better ones risks letting much worse ones in, in the form of militant Islam especially.
The vague 'human rights' we've acquired since WW2 and the secular societies we live in are not really inspirational enough to inspire a vigorous defence of them. The possible exception is the USA, which has plenty of problems of its own but does seem to have a fairly robust idea of some core values.
Christianity is not in itself the answer IMO, but nor is simply abandoning it. I would like to see a rigorous secular and rational political movement which is confident enough to defend values like free speech and equality before the law as absolutes. Such a society could only see the immigration crisis and the creeping Islamisation of Europe as an unmitigated disaster to be stopped and reversed in a very uncompromising way.
In the absence of that, and it doesn't seem to be really on offer anywhere, then I would rather a benign form of Christianity such as we have and a society that was at least prepared to reject worse ideas.
AJS- said:
lionelf said:
I fail to grasp how the decline of Christianity has left a moral vacuum at all. That presupposes that morality is a by-product of religious observance in some way. If anything the world is becoming more moral with the decline in religious belief as we finally have the chance to see things for what they really are rather than what they appear to be when looked at through Christian (beer) goggles.
It seems to have left a vacuum in precisely in the way that we are seeing unfold in Sweden. Post-Christian societies which lack the moral courage or authority to defend themselves, or hold any principles to be inviolable and absolute. Or even to reproduce itself at a rate required to sustain its economic model. Instead they seem to float in a sea of relativism, clinging only to the false dogma that all people are essentially the same; all cultures are of equal value; all criticism of another culture is racism and all pride in our own is narrow nationalism and ugly.
I am an atheist at heart, and agree with you in one sense that the decline of Christianity gives a great opportunity for a more rational approach to many things. It also throws out some old certainties, which while they may have been false from a rational perspective were at least benign enough to coexist with relatively free open societies. Throwing them out without having better ones risks letting much worse ones in, in the form of militant Islam especially.
The vague 'human rights' we've acquired since WW2 and the secular societies we live in are not really inspirational enough to inspire a vigorous defence of them. The possible exception is the USA, which has plenty of problems of its own but does seem to have a fairly robust idea of some core values.
Christianity is not in itself the answer IMO, but nor is simply abandoning it. I would like to see a rigorous secular and rational political movement which is confident enough to defend values like free speech and equality before the law as absolutes. Such a society could only see the immigration crisis and the creeping Islamisation of Europe as an unmitigated disaster to be stopped and reversed in a very uncompromising way.
In the absence of that, and it doesn't seem to be really on offer anywhere, then I would rather a benign form of Christianity such as we have and a society that was at least prepared to reject worse ideas.
I very much agree and would add that without a rigid belief/moral structure there very much is a vacuum because what is or isn't moral is simply an individual matter of opinion. The fact that atheists (for want of a better word) abhor many Christian values is proof of this, because previously our societies would have been united in disgust in the sorts of things that atheists promote (and those people were not more stupid than people today). Do people who we accept as bad people (tyrants etc) believe themselves to be bad, or do they believe their actions are morally justifiable?
The Don of Croy said:
How is the World becoming 'more moral'? Allowing ISIS to occupy land? Allowing Mugabe to rule until he drops? Funding Wahhabism through oil? Allowing China to build new islands to dominate the SCS? Will further billions of individual people suddenly choose to live in peace and harmony despite their near neighbours having all the cash?
What, you really can't see how (for instance) the Catholic Church's abhorrent abuse of children in the past was 'overlooked' but nowadays in our more moral climate isn't allowed to?Of course there are still many millions of immoral acts taking place on a daily basis all over the globe (including here) but one major perpetrator of immorality is being weakened by its ever-diminishing role in society. That makes it a more moral world, albeit only slightly. The other instances you allude to are political issues and not religious.
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