The problem with Islam.

[aw51 121565]

JensenA said:

Why is it that if you say you are anti Islam/Muslim you are immediately classed as a racist? From what I understand, Islam seems totally incompatible with the values of western culture. When there has been trouble in other parts of the world, eg the current tensions between Ukraine and Russia, or the break up of the old Yugoslavia, no one went rushing over there to fight alongside our 'Christian' brothers. But for some reason, Muslims seem to view themselves as Muslims, and not a national of the country they live in. That is something I can't understand, and something that reinforces my suspicion of Islam. The leaders of C of E for example, can come out with statements and 'we' are all free to ridicule and criticize those statements, without fear of offending anyone, and with no fear of any repercussions. Yet 'we' are scared to ridicule or criticise anything that is Muslim.

The BBC 'did' Rev (which was side-splittingly hilarious [actually, no, it wasn't] in taking the piss out of the C of E and undermining it)... When are they doing the equivalent by the name of Imam??? Ehh??

Blair's "all Muslims are suicide bombers and terrorists" social engineering project was - and it's writ clear on all these threads by a majority of posters - pretty successful , but even the beeb haven't got the cojones to pull a stunt like producing Imam . To do so would be a self-fulfilling prophecy, thanks to Rev T Blair and the consequences of what he said (and which many on here apparently believe )...

Current government clearly subscribe to the same policy; witness the letter Pickles recently sent to all the Imams about discouraging young Muslims from becoming radicals...

[TTwiggy]

JensenA said:

Why is it that if you say you are anti Islam/Muslim you are immediately classed as a racist? From what I understand, Islam seems totally incompatible with the values of western culture. When there has been trouble in other parts of the world, eg the current tensions between Ukraine and Russia, or the break up of the old Yugoslavia, no one went rushing over there to fight alongside our 'Christian' brothers. But for some reason, Muslims seem to view themselves as Muslims, and not a national of the country they live in. That is something I can't understand, and something that reinforces my suspicion of Islam. The leaders of C of E for example, can come out with statements and 'we' are all free to ridicule and criticize those statements, without fear of offending anyone, and with no fear of any repercussions. Yet 'we' are scared to ridicule or criticise anything that is Muslim.

To answer the first part of your question, I think that sadly it's convenient to some people that the majority of Muslims also happen to be brown of skin. This allows some people to hide their old-fashioned racism behind 'fears about religion.' Nobody in 2015 would dare to be racist, but being anti-religion is positively encouraged. Hence, when someone feels the need to bring up something negative about Islam or Muslims, it's a good idea to consider for a minute exactly what they're agenda is. Note: I am not pointing a finger at anybody in particular, though we have had posts of the 'thinly-veiled' type on here.

The 'brotherhood' thing I think is largely a result of dissafected youths with little or no prospects finding a 'purpose' in life and a convenient rallying point. Much as many young men did in the 1930s when they left behind a similar lack of prospects to take up arms in Spain. The rallying point then was politics rather than religion.

There was a time - not long ago in the great scheme of things – where criticism of the Christian church could get you killed. Islam is a younger and by nature more strident religion. It might need a few years to calm down a bit. I find it sad that it cannot take criticism, but no sadder than the similar pigheadedness displayed by many other forms of organised worship.

[jonnM]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

All religious extremists are the people who actually do what their holy book tells them to do.

They're more fundamentalist than extremist.

[roachcoach]

TTwiggy said:

JensenA said:

Why is it that if you say you are anti Islam/Muslim you are immediately classed as a racist? From what I understand, Islam seems totally incompatible with the values of western culture. When there has been trouble in other parts of the world, eg the current tensions between Ukraine and Russia, or the break up of the old Yugoslavia, no one went rushing over there to fight alongside our 'Christian' brothers. But for some reason, Muslims seem to view themselves as Muslims, and not a national of the country they live in. That is something I can't understand, and something that reinforces my suspicion of Islam. The leaders of C of E for example, can come out with statements and 'we' are all free to ridicule and criticize those statements, without fear of offending anyone, and with no fear of any repercussions. Yet 'we' are scared to ridicule or criticise anything that is Muslim.

<snip>

There was a time - not long ago in the great scheme of things – where criticism of the Christian church could get you killed. Islam is a younger and by nature more strident religion. It might need a few years to calm down a bit. I find it sad that it cannot take criticism, but no sadder than the similar pigheadedness displayed by many other forms of organised worship.

Also exacerbated by true mass media which is decentralised and social media influences etc etc. Far easier and more common to hear about wingnuts than even 20 years ago. Nothing ever went "viral" back then.

I mean, how many people would have heard about even 15% of the extremist stories linked even here without this forum? Very rarely are they making what I'd term "mainstream" media, which is where most people got most stuff before the whole web 20 assplosion.

I don't think it's any worse than before, just you actually hear about it.

[zygalski]

TTwiggy said:

I'm amazed that Haymarket haven't washed their hands of this place really. It's starting to feel like 'stormfront' in here.

+1
Never seen so many right-wing keyboard warriors given as much free reign as on PH.
Moderation is utterly appalling on this site & that's where the problem lies.
I was basically accused of being a paedophile in this thread...

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

FreeLitres said:

zygalski said:

Obsessive paedo-rage.

So, we should just sit back and forgive your type?

...reported the post straight away 5 days ago & it's still there.
Very poor show.
Someone could quite easily take legal action against this site for publishing such unsubstantiated libel.

Edited by zygalski on Thursday 19th February 18:48

[Mr_B]

zygalski said:

...reported the post straight away 5 days ago & it's still there.
Very poor show.
Someone could quite easily take legal action against this site for publishing such unsubstantiated libel.

Edited by zygalski on Thursday 19th February 18:48

Weren't you the bloke who kept accusing the EDL or murder ? Yes, it was you wasn't it. Kept repeating that claim only to look an absolute fool when some east European was jailed for the murder.

If there is a problem with what you see as too many people with a negative opinion on Islam and Muslims, then it's probably countered by your type who turn up and fling your 'its racist' st all over the place to create such a stink no one of any decent opinion stays around or bothers to be associated with it. That is the trade of many a person on here who so proudly slaps there own back in congratulation of what they see as fighting racism and does it with such a sick smug attitude to be equally as sick as the real racists.

[johnxjsc1985]

I wonder how a modern day Dave Allen would cope today

[Mr GrimNasty]

zygalski said:

...reported the post straight away 5 days ago & it's still there.
Very poor show.
Someone could quite easily take legal action against this site for publishing such unsubstantiated libel.

Edited by zygalski on Thursday 19th February 18:48

No they couldn't. It's a calm and rational discussion of opinions about a manifestly serious problem of our times.

[zygalski]

Mr_B said:

Weren't you the bloke who kept accusing the EDL or murder ? Yes, it was you wasn't it. Kept repeating that claim only to look an absolute fool when some east European was jailed for the murder.

If there is a problem with what you see as too many people with a negative opinion on Islam and Muslims, then it's probably countered by your type who turn up and fling your 'its racist' st all over the place to create such a stink no one of any decent opinion stays around or bothers to be associated with it. That is the trade of many a person on here who so proudly slaps there own back in congratulation of what they see as fighting racism and does it with such a sick smug attitude to be equally as sick as the real racists.

I think I quoted a newspaper article. I certainly don't recall saying such-and-such is a murderer.
If I accused an innocent EDL member of murder then please reference the quote & of course I offer my humblest apologies for any reference to any such act.

Now, about being accused of being a paedophile on Pistonheads forums....

[johnxjsc1985]

the more we discuss the more enlightend we become.

[zygalski]

Mr GrimNasty said:

zygalski said:

...reported the post straight away 5 days ago & it's still there.
Very poor show.
Someone could quite easily take legal action against this site for publishing such unsubstantiated libel.

Edited by zygalski on Thursday 19th February 18:48

No they couldn't. It's a calm and rational discussion of opinions about a manifestly serious problem of our times.

Ah ok.
So I accuse you of being a kiddy-fiddler & PH should just leave that up simply because (in your opinion) the street are awash with paedophiles.
Great.

I just reported that post I quoted earlier again.
Let's see. If it stays, then clearly you can insinuate pretty much anything about another forumite in this place.

Edited by zygalski on Thursday 19th February 19:09

[voyds9]

tangerine_sedge said:

Let me reword that for you :

Like a vocal minority, I fear Islam, basically blaming it for a small minority(*) of its practitioners to commit mass murder and generally to act in many ways downright backward, medieval even.

(*) worldwide Muslims = 1.8Billion, members of ISIL/ISIS=~235k (but lets be kind and say 2Million world wide), therefore ISIS make up 0.1% of all muslims. We could of course include lots of other groups of Muslim activists, lets say another 8Million which would give us 10Million worldwide meaning 0.5% of all muslims.

I'm getting a little tired of seeing the same sweeping generalsations posted here, backed up by far-right self interest blogs & opinion puff-pieces.

Now follows 20 pages of anti muslim nonsense.

Lets say you are correct and there are only 10 million Muslim killers in the world.

That is 80 times larger than our army
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Armed_Forces

Or to look at it another way, larger than the smallest 159 countries in the world
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and...

If they are evenly distributed then the UK only has 139,000 radicals
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_K...

Don't forget our regular army is only 169,000

Few is relative.

[Mr_B]

zygalski said:

Mr_B said:

Weren't you the bloke who kept accusing the EDL or murder ? Yes, it was you wasn't it. Kept repeating that claim only to look an absolute fool when some east European was jailed for the murder.

If there is a problem with what you see as too many people with a negative opinion on Islam and Muslims, then it's probably countered by your type who turn up and fling your 'its racist' st all over the place to create such a stink no one of any decent opinion stays around or bothers to be associated with it. That is the trade of many a person on here who so proudly slaps there own back in congratulation of what they see as fighting racism and does it with such a sick smug attitude to be equally as sick as the real racists.

I think I quoted a newspaper article. I certainly don't recall saying such-and-such is a murderer.
If I accused an innocent EDL member of murder then please reference the quote & of course I offer my humblest apologies for any reference to any such act.

Now, about being accused of being a paedophile on Pistonheads forums....

You didn't name an individual, you just did exactly the same as what you turn up to fight against on every immigration, Muslim or thread where race is present and made assumptions and accusations based on nothing more than your own acceptable hatred towards a group, and with the feeling you must be right to tar everyone on something baseless. You know, much like you accuse people here of doing towards Muslims. See how that is no one way street and can come back and bite you in the arse ? You saw what you wanted to see, nothing else.

If you have had that accusation, then you are right to complain and wonder why it hasn't been removed. I haven't read it or am a Mod here. If it is as you say, then I'd be very unhappy too.

[raftom]

Good article. The identification of Sunni Islam with Wahabism is a key issue and the trap that keeps 'peaceful loving' muslims in the same bed with the loonies that are cutting heads in Syria. It's impossible to condemn IS without challenging current mainstream Islam tenets.

[zygalski]

Mr_B said:

If you have had that accusation, then you are right to complain and wonder why it hasn't been removed. I haven't read it or am a Mod here. If it is as you say, then I'd be very unhappy too.

Thank you
There is a big difference between politically motivated spats & personal attacks such as the one I outline above. I would never accuse another forum user of such a thing & am glad you agree.

Part of the reason I appear in many of these political threads is that on PH we seem to have a massive imbalance of Right vs Left. I'm one of only a few people who put anything like another side to many of these debates. If people genuinely think for instance UKIP are going to hold the balance of power this year because of the very vocal support UKIP gets on PH then I feel obliged to remind them of the political landscape outside of this forum.

[Mr GrimNasty]

zygalski said:

Mr GrimNasty said:

zygalski said:

...reported the post straight away 5 days ago & it's still there.
Very poor show.
Someone could quite easily take legal action against this site for publishing such unsubstantiated libel.

Edited by zygalski on Thursday 19th February 18:48

No they couldn't. It's a calm and rational discussion of opinions about a manifestly serious problem of our times.

Ah ok.
So I accuse you of being a kiddy-fiddler & PH should just leave that up simply because (in your opinion) the street are awash with paedophiles.
Great.

I just reported that post I quoted earlier again.
Let's see. If it stays, then clearly you can insinuate pretty much anything about another forumite in this place.

Edited by zygalski on Thursday 19th February 19:09

I can't be bothered to read it, frankly, it you have been personally insulted, well get it deleted.

I'm afraid your viewpoint is ALWAYS so jaundiced and prejudiced I just assumed you were talking the usual rubbish and trying to shut down legitimate debate.

[johnxjsc1985]

Mr GrimNasty said:

I can't be bothered to read it, frankly, it you have been personally insulted, well get it deleted.

I'm afraid your viewpoint is ALWAYS so jaundiced and prejudiced I just assumed you were talking the usual rubbish and trying to shut down legitimate debate.

If we are all unreasonable right wing Kippers why bother coming here?.

[johnxjsc1985]

Mr GrimNasty said:

I can't be bothered to read it, frankly, it you have been personally insulted, well get it deleted.

I'm afraid your viewpoint is ALWAYS so jaundiced and prejudiced I just assumed you were talking the usual rubbish and trying to shut down legitimate debate.

If we are all unreasonable right wing Kippers why bother coming here?.

[Mr_B]

zygalski said:

Thank you
There is a big difference between politically motivated spats & personal attacks such as the one I outline above. I would never accuse another forum user of such a thing & am glad you agree.

Part of the reason I appear in many of these political threads is that on PH we seem to have a massive imbalance of Right vs Left. I'm one of only a few people who put anything like another side to many of these debates. If people genuinely think for instance UKIP are going to hold the balance of power this year because of the very vocal support UKIP gets on PH then I feel obliged to remind them of the political landscape outside of this forum.

I take your point and agree about the balance here. My other point was people who turn up and say little more than it's all racism and then add in 'Nazi' and generally add nothing by trying to create a stink of racism so few people will both, are no better than anyone talking real racism. There is a certain smugness to some who do that and think themselves wonderfully liberal for doing so, for some reason.

[trashbat]

JensenA said:

Why is it that if you say you are anti Islam/Muslim you are immediately classed as a racist?

It depends whether an obvious racist is saying it, doesn't it?

JensenA said:

From what I understand, Islam seems totally incompatible with the values of western culture. When there has been trouble in other parts of the world, eg the current tensions between Ukraine and Russia, or the break up of the old Yugoslavia, no one went rushing over there to fight alongside our 'Christian' brothers.

How closely do you identify with Ukrainians? I'm less sure as to why you would have gone to join anyone in Yugoslavia unless it was the Muslims being subjected to ethnic cleansing, but whatever.

In a particular light, of course, the alliance of Christian countries did (and does) go wading into these things. Tony Blair said God sent us into Iraq, FFS. It just happens to usually take the form of professional military forces rather than a rag tag group of fighters in technicals.

JensenA said:

But for some reason, Muslims seem to view themselves as Muslims, and not a national of the country they live in. That is something I can't understand, and something that reinforces my suspicion of Islam. The leaders of C of E for example, can come out with statements and 'we' are all free to ridicule and criticize those statements, without fear of offending anyone, and with no fear of any repercussions. Yet 'we' are scared to ridicule or criticise anything that is Muslim.

It's about cohesive identity, isn't it, even though I don't agree with your statement.

Most Britons don't have a strong identity of being Christian these days; if we all went to church every Sunday and that was the focal point of our communities, a stronger community, then maybe you would place Christian values higher in your identity compared to nationalism. Maybe not. Equally if you grew up in a mess of a country that has very little cohesive infrastructure or a national identity, you probably don't identify very strongly with its flag, surprisingly enough. It's easy to think of what British or American might be supposed to mean, but what about Iraqi?

Equally if you were dragged off to live on the Costa del Sol or the English-speaking enclaves of France, I bet a penny to a pound you would identify as an English expat in an English expat community, and not as a member of the country you found yourself in, but this is the same thing you're criticising others for.

I also suggested you're wrong about it; not always, but often. How about Iranians? Have a look at the culture of Iran - not the politics, but the people. I don't know what they self-identify as first, Muslim or an Iranian national, but I can tell you that Persian history and values are extremely important to most, whilst meaning nothing to a Pakistani Muslim. Incidentally you should look up the level of friendliness in Persian society, it's hilarious.

I've possibly wasted my time with this, but your post was at least articulate enough to bother with.

Edited by trashbat on Thursday 19th February 19:42