Finally, proof there is no God.

[cymtriks]

WinstonWolf said:

It can only bare a passing resemblance to anything if what is written is incorrect or fudged.

And what's wrong with Thor, why isn't he god any more?

Thor is still a God. Some people in Scandinavia still worship in "the old custom" as they call it.

Not certain exactly what you think is incorrect or fudged. I would suggest that any interpretation of an ancient record (religious text or not) requires some allowance for how the original authors saw their world. This is what is sadly lacking on all sides. That is why I think that Christians who try to argue that all animals being on the Ark means all animals in the world today are wrong. Even a scant regard for the original circumstances would lead to the conclusion that it means all *your* animals, in other words breading pairs from the tribal village.

Just consider how a modern farmer faced with rising flood water would respond if a government official said "get pairs of every animal onto the evacuation truck". Would he start worrying about pairs of lions and penguins? Or would he think "right, two best pigs, two best cattle and two best sheep". Context is required.

[cymtriks]

///ajd said:

"Having seen some teenagers in the middle of the night with planks and bits of string in a corn field making crop circles, you are concluding that the crop circles are still proof of aliens as some aliens made the teenagers do it."

Does this statement seem logical to you?

It is as logical as your statement about a creator.

I would prefer:

"Having seen some teenagers in the middle of the night with planks and bits of string in a corn field making crop circles, I conclude that there may still be an overall message or plan behind them."

The "plan" could be that the farmer paid them to do it to charge for access to view the "mystery". Seriously, that did happen, I actually knew someone who made crop circles!!

[///ajd]

cymtriks said:

WinstonWolf said:

It can only bare a passing resemblance to anything if what is written is incorrect or fudged.

And what's wrong with Thor, why isn't he god any more?

Thor is still a God. Some people in Scandinavia still worship in "the old custom" as they call it.

Not certain exactly what you think is incorrect or fudged. I would suggest that any interpretation of an ancient record (religious text or not) requires some allowance for how the original authors saw their world. This is what is sadly lacking on all sides. That is why I think that Christians who try to argue that all animals being on the Ark means all animals in the world today are wrong. Even a scant regard for the original circumstances would lead to the conclusion that it means all *your* animals, in other words breading pairs from the tribal village.

Just consider how a modern farmer faced with rising flood water would respond if a government official said "get pairs of every animal onto the evacuation truck". Would he start worrying about pairs of lions and penguins? Or would he think "right, two best pigs, two best cattle and two best sheep". Context is required.

What is the point of the story if it was just a few pigs? It is just a routine flood story blown oit of all proportion? If so, doesn't that make it pointless from religious point of view? A farmer and his goats on a raft is not very biblical is it?

What do you believe was Gods role in the farmer and goats on a raft story? I thought part of the deal was that God spoke to Noah?

[///ajd]

cymtriks said:

///ajd said:

"Having seen some teenagers in the middle of the night with planks and bits of string in a corn field making crop circles, you are concluding that the crop circles are still proof of aliens as some aliens made the teenagers do it."

Does this statement seem logical to you?

It is as logical as your statement about a creator.

I would prefer:

"Having seen some teenagers in the middle of the night with planks and bits of string in a corn field making crop circles, I conclude that there may still be an overall message or plan behind them."

The "plan" could be that the farmer paid them to do it to charge for access to view the "mystery". Seriously, that did happen, I actually knew someone who made crop circles!!

So you agree that the more logical explanation is more likely than aliens?

That was really my point. The probability of e.g. something like entropy being the origin of life as opposed to a creator is similarly tipped in favour of the more naturally logical explanation.

[Troubleatmill]

///ajd said:

What is the point of the story if it was just a few pigs? It is just a routine flood story blown oit of all proportion? If so, doesn't that make it pointless from religious point of view? A farmer and his goats on a raft is not very biblical is it?

What do you believe was Gods role in the farmer and goats on a raft story? I thought part of the deal was that God spoke to Noah?

The whole premise of the flood was that God was pig sick of us. And wanted to start again. Wiping us all off the earth.

How that would be achieved by a localised event, makes no sense.
Why would the Chinese be allowed to escape God's wrath?

And if it was going to be a localised flood. Why build a boat? Why not use the time ti get out of Dodge?

And if the flood wiped out everything in the region. What did the animals eat once the flood receded?
(Vegetation doesn't really do very well under water )

Have we discussed God's love for infanticide yet?
It seems to be one of the few things that cheer him up and pacify him for a while.

[///ajd]

Troubleatmill said:

The whole premise of the flood was that God was pig sick of us. And wanted to start again. Wiping us all off the earth.

How that would be achieved by a localised event, makes no sense.
Why would the Chinese be allowed to escape God's wrath?

And if it was going to be a localised flood. Why build a boat? Why not use the time ti get out of Dodge?

And if the flood wiped out everything in the region. What did the animals eat once the flood receded?
(Vegetation doesn't really do very well under water )

Have we discussed God's love for infanticide yet?
It seems to be one of the few things that cheer him up and pacify him for a while.

What is the infanticide? Any quotes from the gospel on this?

[WinstonWolf]

cymtriks said:

WinstonWolf said:

It can only bare a passing resemblance to anything if what is written is incorrect or fudged.

And what's wrong with Thor, why isn't he god any more?

Thor is still a God. Some people in Scandinavia still worship in "the old custom" as they call it.

Not certain exactly what you think is incorrect or fudged. I would suggest that any interpretation of an ancient record (religious text or not) requires some allowance for how the original authors saw their world. This is what is sadly lacking on all sides. That is why I think that Christians who try to argue that all animals being on the Ark means all animals in the world today are wrong. Even a scant regard for the original circumstances would lead to the conclusion that it means all *your* animals, in other words breading pairs from the tribal village.

Just consider how a modern farmer faced with rising flood water would respond if a government official said "get pairs of every animal onto the evacuation truck". Would he start worrying about pairs of lions and penguins? Or would he think "right, two best pigs, two best cattle and two best sheep". Context is required.

So Thor created the universe in seven days?

[Moonhawk]

WinstonWolf said:

So Thor created the universe in seven days?

Well at least we know he will have done a proper job - using a hammer

[///ajd]

ash73 said:

///ajd said:

The probability of something like entropy being the origin of life...

Entropy cannot explain the origin of life, but it may describe the direction it takes. By the way, single-celled to 50 ton dinosaurs to birds? Are there some examples in the history of evolution which support the theory?

If the environment "wants" to be in a state of maximum entropy what causes life, as a chemical reaction or energy exchange, to delay that process? What sets the arrow of time and defines maximum entropy as the end state?

It ascribes order to a universal process we don't understand; it doesn't really explain anything.

I'm not sure you can rule out the entropy based theory yet. Sure there might be more to it, but experiements may prove it could have ked to the basic building blocks.

For the question on single cell to bird, are you questioning whether the theory of evolution can explain this? I thought it was scientifically recognised that this was valid? Only the very initial origins are as yet unclear / unexplained / proven as I understand it, but just a matter if time before science stumbles on the answer and proves it in a lab. Are you hinting that you don't think they will and that there must have been an intelligent designer at work in the process?

[Moonhawk]

///ajd said:

but just a matter if time before science stumbles on the answer and proves it in a lab.

I wager £10 that when a scientist does manage to get life to spawn spontaneously in a lab from primordial building blocks - some religious adherents will take this as proof that life has to be created by a higher intelligence.

[GadgeS3C]

Moonhawk said:

///ajd said:

but just a matter if time before science stumbles on the answer and proves it in a lab.

I wager £10 that when a scientist does manage to get life to spawn spontaneously in a lab from primordial building blocks - some religious adherents will take this as proof that life has to be created by a higher intelligence.

Or lynch the scientist/burn the building down for playing god...

[Troubleatmill]

///ajd said:

Troubleatmill said:

The whole premise of the flood was that God was pig sick of us. And wanted to start again. Wiping us all off the earth.

How that would be achieved by a localised event, makes no sense.
Why would the Chinese be allowed to escape God's wrath?

And if it was going to be a localised flood. Why build a boat? Why not use the time ti get out of Dodge?

And if the flood wiped out everything in the region. What did the animals eat once the flood receded?
(Vegetation doesn't really do very well under water )

Have we discussed God's love for infanticide yet?
It seems to be one of the few things that cheer him up and pacify him for a while.

What is the infanticide? Any quotes from the gospel on this?

For starters......
"So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city. 21And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword."
Joshua 6:20 - 21


"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass"
1 Samuel 15:3


"And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee."
Job 1:18-19 ( This is where God decides to go gambling with the devil. He kills all of Job's children as part of a wager. Read Job from the beginning to get full context - it is short. )


"15Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.
16Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished"
Isaiah 13:15-16


"4And Moses said, Thus saith the LORD, About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt: 5And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts. 6And there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as there was none like it, nor shall be like it any more. 7But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel. 8And all these thy servants shall come down unto me, and bow down themselves unto me, saying, Get thee out, and all the people that follow thee: and after that I will go out. And he went out from Pharaoh in a great anger."
Exodus 11:4-8 ( This is where all seeing all knowing God - is a bit forgetful - and asks for some markings on the door -


1By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
2We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof.
3For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song; and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion.
4How shall we sing the LORD'S song in a strange land?
5If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.
6If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy.
7Remember, O LORD, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof.
8O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.
9Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
Psalm 137 ( 9 is is the baby killing bit - although I don't recall Boney-M singing about it too loudly )


God really has it in for babies.


But - Jesus like his dad - also really loves a bit of baby killing too.

But he (Jesus) answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? 4For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Matthew 15:3-4

43For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, 44And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee
Luke 19:43-44

[Derek Smith]

Troubleatmill said:

Lots of smiting.

Yeah, but apart from that, what's he ever done against children.

[Einion Yrth]

Derek Smith said:

Troubleatmill said:

Lots of smiting.

Yeah, but apart from that, what's he ever done against children.

2 Kings 2:23-24

[///ajd]

ash73 said:

///ajd said:

Are you hinting that .. there must have been an intelligent designer at work in the process?

I ask for some examples as evidence to support the entropy-based evolution theory, which seems reasonable, and you tar me with that brush?! Don't be so binary.

I was only going by this:

ash73 said:

By the way, single-celled to 50 ton dinosaurs to birds? Are there some examples in the history of evolution which support the theory?

The way you phrases this suggested evolution could not explain it. If not evolution, what exactly did you have in mind? It seemed you were implying a non-scientific deity type answer, but happy for you to confirm you rule that out.

[turbobloke]

Einion Yrth said:

Derek Smith said:

Troubleatmill said:

Lots of smiting.

Yeah, but apart from that, what's he ever done against children.

2 Kings 2:23-24

After those episodes - and depending on appetite levels - there may well have been a lot of it, in the woods.

[Troubleatmill]

And Jesus really does't want to help you anyway:

From Matthew 15....

"21Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. 22And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. "

- Clearly this is a great opportunity for Jesus to show his love and compassion......

23But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

- So - not only does Jesus not give a st about the poor woman's daughter - but his best mates aren't really supportive either. Is it because the woman is of the wrong background/ race?

24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

- Ah - Jesus has quite strong views on your race then.

25Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

- Wow - Jesus truly is compassion and love.

27And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

- She is begging now. How low does he want her to go?

28Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

- Praise the Lord. For he is truly worthy.


Seriously - if you met someone with xenophobic/ race issues like Jesus today - you would probably lamp him one.

Edited by Troubleatmill on Friday 6th March 21:33

[Derek Smith]

Einion Yrth said:

Derek Smith said:

Troubleatmill said:

Lots of smiting.

Yeah, but apart from that, what's he ever done against children.

2 Kings 2:23-24

You make that, the killing of 42 kids by two bears, is a bad thing, but a quick trawl of the internet will show that it is nothing of the sort.

https://carm.org/why-did-god-kill-42-lads-merely-s...

42 is a large number of people. [It] implied a malicious intent. The statement “go up you baldhead!” has cultural significance. The epithet ‘baldhead’ was one of contempt . . . something . . . that can quickly get out of hand. God did not . . . murder. Murder is the unlawful taking of life. But, all people have sinned against God and are worthy of death (Rom. 3:23; 6:23). So, God had them killed according to the Law.

So it was lucky that the 42 kids were killed by the bears as if they had not done so, words of more significant cultural significance might have been said. Further god is the god of do as I say.

(Other interpretations of the passage are available.)

[Einion Yrth]

Derek Smith said:

all people have sinned against God and are worthy of death (Rom. 3:23; 6:23)

Well, we're all fscked then anyway. Although I already knew that dying was the last thing I was going to do.

Does cause me to question the loving and compassionate claims though.

[cymtriks]

///ajd said:

What is the point of the story if it was just a few pigs? It is just a routine flood story blown oit of all proportion? If so, doesn't that make it pointless from religious point of view? A farmer and his goats on a raft is not very biblical is it?

The flood of circa 2900BC covered about half of modern Iraq! The historical Noah was probably the tribal leader who made the decision to evacuate and get everything onto the boats. To anyone living in the area, or in areas near the area, the flood would have been devastating.

///ajd said:

What do you believe was Gods role in the farmer and goats on a raft story? I thought part of the deal was that God spoke to Noah?

From a Christian point of view I assume he would be divinely inspired to make the call. If he had also, as the Bible states, been involved in making a large boat (or fleet of smaller boats that were tied together to form a large raft) at the right time then that too could be view as a divine instruction.