Finally, proof there is no God.
Discussion
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Yes we have. Experiments have been done where we have seen a new species of bacteria evolve from a different species. Bacteria being ideally suited for this type of experiment due to the fast turnover of generations.
As for acorns and oak trees, you completely miss the point, deliberately I suspect. Evolution is simply gradual change over a period of time. The Porsche 911 has evolved, my job has evolved. Your specific example was a single cell organism evolving into a 50 ton dinosaur. Your issue seemed to be with discrepancy of size. Otherwise why pick 50 ton dinosaur? Why not pick cat?
My example was to point out that little things turn into big things all the time, and no one doubts it.
Religions have evolved as well. We now have more emphasis on happy-clappy and less on fearing. There's TV to compete with. As for acorns and oak trees, you completely miss the point, deliberately I suspect. Evolution is simply gradual change over a period of time. The Porsche 911 has evolved, my job has evolved. Your specific example was a single cell organism evolving into a 50 ton dinosaur. Your issue seemed to be with discrepancy of size. Otherwise why pick 50 ton dinosaur? Why not pick cat?
My example was to point out that little things turn into big things all the time, and no one doubts it.
We make fewer miracle cures now that medicine also has evolved from licking trees to taking pills.
I was looking for a YouTube video I had seen some time ago and discovered a new animal.
There was a bit on the 'hobbit' sized humans, no taller than 3', that lived 18,000 years ago. The article said that they lived alongside pygmy elephants and loft lizards.
I've never heard of a loft lizard, and I'm surprised there were lofts 18,000 years ago. Mind you, if these hobbits lived in normal houses, then they could have a loft in them without having to duck. But why did they have lizards living there?
This evolution business is very complicated.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcp5RzyOaLY
There was a bit on the 'hobbit' sized humans, no taller than 3', that lived 18,000 years ago. The article said that they lived alongside pygmy elephants and loft lizards.
I've never heard of a loft lizard, and I'm surprised there were lofts 18,000 years ago. Mind you, if these hobbits lived in normal houses, then they could have a loft in them without having to duck. But why did they have lizards living there?
This evolution business is very complicated.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcp5RzyOaLY
cymtriks said:
WinstonWolf said:
If you change the account to something else it becomes plausible 
The point is that the original authors did not see the world the way we do. Also some context is required.As I pointed out earlier "every animal" would not mean every animal in the world if a modern day farmer was told to get every animal onto a truck to evacuate his farm. It probably didn't mean every animal in the world to Noah either. In the context of a hasty evacuation of the tribal settlement it would mean their farm animals.
Also there is a clear candidate for the Flood circa 2900BC. It covered a huge area and would certainly have seemed like "the whole world" to anyone living on the plains of Iraq at the time.
The problem is that both the religious and the non religious are reading the text without regard to the period in which it was written or to the context of the event.
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It becomes more like a recorded natural event - like the japanese tsunami - rather than God trying to wipe us out apart from noah who he tipped off (thats pretty mean to those he killed, no?)
Isn't it likely this is just a story that gas nothing to do with a god as a result? Isn't that the real rational 'context'?
cymtriks said:
The point is that the original authors did not see the world the way we do. Also some context is required.
As I pointed out earlier "every animal" would not mean every animal in the world if a modern day farmer was told to get every animal onto a truck to evacuate his farm. It probably didn't mean every animal in the world to Noah either. In the context of a hasty evacuation of the tribal settlement it would mean their farm animals.
Also there is a clear candidate for the Flood circa 2900BC. It covered a huge area and would certainly have seemed like "the whole world" to anyone living on the plains of Iraq at the time.
The problem is that both the religious and the non religious are reading the text without regard to the period in which it was written or to the context of the event.
In that case, in that context, the significance of the flood is surely changed also?As I pointed out earlier "every animal" would not mean every animal in the world if a modern day farmer was told to get every animal onto a truck to evacuate his farm. It probably didn't mean every animal in the world to Noah either. In the context of a hasty evacuation of the tribal settlement it would mean their farm animals.
Also there is a clear candidate for the Flood circa 2900BC. It covered a huge area and would certainly have seemed like "the whole world" to anyone living on the plains of Iraq at the time.
The problem is that both the religious and the non religious are reading the text without regard to the period in which it was written or to the context of the event.
It becomes more like a recorded natural event - like the japanese tsunami - rather than God trying to wipe us out apart from noah who he tipped off (thats pretty mean to those he killed, no?)
Isn't it likely this is just a story that gas nothing to do with a god as a result? Isn't that the real rational 'context'?
Either God was busy telling lots of random people to do things - or he wasn't.
The sanitised version now seems to be.
A bit of a bad flood in Persia.
But we survived.
God must have been really unhappy with us.
We should write something down - to serve as a warning to future generations not to make God mad in future.
And it wouldn't hurt if we said - he spoke to us in the first place.
The sanitised version now seems to be.
A bit of a bad flood in Persia.
But we survived.
God must have been really unhappy with us.
We should write something down - to serve as a warning to future generations not to make God mad in future.
And it wouldn't hurt if we said - he spoke to us in the first place.
WinstonWolf said:
Books are in one of two categories, fact or fiction. The bible seems to be in the latter.
What a silly statement.The Bible works very well as a tribal history. Events can be fitted into a historical framework, places can be identified as real places, individuals can be identified as real people.
The people that told the stories believed that the events that were important enough to write down were influenced in some way by God. Telling the account that way does not make it false, it merely reflects how they saw their world.
Classifying the bible as fiction looks like wishful thinking, an irrational belief that anything associated with religion must be nonsense.
cymtriks said:
WinstonWolf said:
Books are in one of two categories, fact or fiction. The bible seems to be in the latter.
What a silly statement.The Bible works very well as a tribal history. Events can be fitted into a historical framework, places can be identified as real places, individuals can be identified as real people.
The people that told the stories believed that the events that were important enough to write down were influenced in some way by God. Telling the account that way does not make it false, it merely reflects how they saw their world.
Classifying the bible as fiction looks like wishful thinking, an irrational belief that anything associated with religion must be nonsense.
It has been admitted that a literal translation of the bible cannot be fact, and it has to be interpreted. This casts enormous doubt on the veracity of any of its claims of a deity and a 'sun' of that deity.
cymtriks said:
WinstonWolf said:
Books are in one of two categories, fact or fiction. The bible seems to be in the latter.
What a silly statement.The Bible works very well as a tribal history. Events can be fitted into a historical framework, places can be identified as real places, individuals can be identified as real people.
The people that told the stories believed that the events that were important enough to write down were influenced in some way by God. Telling the account that way does not make it false, it merely reflects how they saw their world.
Classifying the bible as fiction looks like wishful thinking, an irrational belief that anything associated with religion must be nonsense.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
If we accept the questionable premise that Jesus existed, then this alone is not a belief in a god.Further, if we accept that what is written in the gospels is, in some way, gospel then it is quite clear that Jesus was not out to start a new religion but to modify and reform judaism, in the same way that protestantism is a reformed form of roman catholicism.
Many churches we stand around in awe at their construction and decoration were funded by indulgences. A form of tax to get into heaven. No wonder Luther, and the dozens before him, who saw the corruption endemic in the church wanted it changed. And the same went for Jesus and judaism. The irony is, of course, that the religion supposedly based on his teachings was in fact designed by a roman emperor who died a heathen, and it was his decision to include the OT and thereby negate the teachings of the bloke on whose teachings, supposedly, the religion was based.
We'll never know what a christian religion might have been.
There is also the underlying suggestion that Jesus was some form of leader of a revolution against the Roman occupation. They did what they always did in such cases and killed those it saw as a threat.
The purely manufactured bit of the crowd voting as to which one of the condemned should be killed was an attempt to defer blame. A remarkably successful one as it has turned out, with a recent film perpetuating the myth. It was lauded in the USA despite is being, in the opinion of many, a racist rant.
The basis of many religions is, modern research tends to suggest, sun worship. You don't have to look far to see that christmas and the solstice, easter and the equinox (easter being timed according to the Moon) have some sort of celestial basis. Indeed, christianity took over many of the celebrations of the religions it replaced in the countries it was imposed upon.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
As winston says, placing stories in real places does not make them true.Jesus may well have existed.
The question is, was he anything other than a normal bloke?
Evidence for feeding the 5000? Seems made up/exaggerated.
Also, tellingly, what about the storm on the lake with the disciples - where they were "saved by the son of God and they knew he was real". So they were in a terrible storm, feared for their lives but then the storm cleared, the sun came out and all was good. Indeed the sun of god did save them.
Do you have any specific parables that you think are convincing that show Jesus was indeed the son of a deity via virgin birth? What is the evidence, other than the bible - which we seem to be agreeing is largely fictional?
Hypothetical question for the hardened atheists on here:
In a dire situation, say your child is on the brink due to terminal illness, or you're in a situation where the prognosis is bleak (take your pick: crashing plane, burning house, circling sharks etc)... do any of you feel you may just resort to a form of prayer or some cry to a "higher power" as a last resort?
Not making any assumptions - just curious.
The inevitable sarcastic responses are welcomed, but am much more interested in the serious ones.
In a dire situation, say your child is on the brink due to terminal illness, or you're in a situation where the prognosis is bleak (take your pick: crashing plane, burning house, circling sharks etc)... do any of you feel you may just resort to a form of prayer or some cry to a "higher power" as a last resort?
Not making any assumptions - just curious.
The inevitable sarcastic responses are welcomed, but am much more interested in the serious ones.
-DeaDLocK- said:
Hypothetical question for the hardened atheists on here:
In a dire situation, say your child is on the brink due to terminal illness, or you're in a situation where the prognosis is bleak (take your pick: crashing plane, burning house, circling sharks etc)... do any of you feel you may just resort to a form of prayer or some cry to a "higher power" as a last resort?
Not making any assumptions - just curious.
The inevitable sarcastic responses are welcomed, but am much more interested in the serious ones.
Not a situation I've ever been in, so I can't be absolutely sure, but I doubt it very much; belief in deities makes no sense to me now and I can see no reason why it would "in extremis".In a dire situation, say your child is on the brink due to terminal illness, or you're in a situation where the prognosis is bleak (take your pick: crashing plane, burning house, circling sharks etc)... do any of you feel you may just resort to a form of prayer or some cry to a "higher power" as a last resort?
Not making any assumptions - just curious.
The inevitable sarcastic responses are welcomed, but am much more interested in the serious ones.
-DeaDLocK- said:
Hypothetical question for the hardened atheists on here:
In a dire situation, say your child is on the brink due to terminal illness, or you're in a situation where the prognosis is bleak (take your pick: crashing plane, burning house, circling sharks etc)... do any of you feel you may just resort to a form of prayer or some cry to a "higher power" as a last resort?
Not making any assumptions - just curious.
The inevitable sarcastic responses are welcomed, but am much more interested in the serious ones.
It would appear that most people consider those they love in cases of aircrash. Those who were in the three plane loads that religionists murdered in the USA sent texts to were their loved ones, telling them how much they loved them and some other more personal communication.In a dire situation, say your child is on the brink due to terminal illness, or you're in a situation where the prognosis is bleak (take your pick: crashing plane, burning house, circling sharks etc)... do any of you feel you may just resort to a form of prayer or some cry to a "higher power" as a last resort?
Not making any assumptions - just curious.
The inevitable sarcastic responses are welcomed, but am much more interested in the serious ones.
For me, if I was in that situation and had the time, I have to say that I think I would do the same, and hope I would as well. As a writer, there are a couple of editors I might text as well, but to send a slightly different message.
-DeaDLocK- said:
Hypothetical question for the hardened atheists on here:
In a dire situation, say your child is on the brink due to terminal illness, or you're in a situation where the prognosis is bleak (take your pick: crashing plane, burning house, circling sharks etc)... do any of you feel you may just resort to a form of prayer or some cry to a "higher power" as a last resort?
Not making any assumptions - just curious.
The inevitable sarcastic responses are welcomed, but am much more interested in the serious ones.
Not really. Of course I am not in that position and stress and panic can cause a human to do many things.In a dire situation, say your child is on the brink due to terminal illness, or you're in a situation where the prognosis is bleak (take your pick: crashing plane, burning house, circling sharks etc)... do any of you feel you may just resort to a form of prayer or some cry to a "higher power" as a last resort?
Not making any assumptions - just curious.
The inevitable sarcastic responses are welcomed, but am much more interested in the serious ones.
Einion Yrth said:
Not a situation I've ever been in, so I can't be absolutely sure, but I doubt it very much; belief in deities makes no sense to me now and I can see no reason why it would "in extremis".
i think a lot will depend on your upbringing, especially as a young child. If you were told by all those in authority over you that there was a god then, despite being able to dismiss this as silly when an adult, if you are under extreme pressure then you could well revert. It is natural. If you were in a panic then there's no saying what you might do. If you are calm, and can consider the options, then Gungda Din comes in to play.
A grandmother of mine was tortured by nuns over a period of around 8 years and was fed rubbish that she was a sinner because she came from a single-parent family. Despite it being clear to her that those who committed horrible acts, including killing her twin brother, were nothing but the lowest of the low, she still felt guilt until her death, well into her 90s.
Such praying is not a measure of the likely existence of a god but of indoctrination. Some people, as is apparent, can't divest themselves of any of it.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Why do you need to classify someone who doesn't believe in a religion? I'm quite happy defining myself under other factors. I don't believe in homeopathy, astrology, politicians yet there are no classifications there. -DeaDLocK- said:
Hypothetical question for the hardened atheists on here:
In a dire situation, say your child is on the brink due to terminal illness, or you're in a situation where the prognosis is bleak (take your pick: crashing plane, burning house, circling sharks etc)... do any of you feel you may just resort to a form of prayer or some cry to a "higher power" as a last resort?
Not making any assumptions - just curious.
I can think of a few moments where my death was a real prospect and no, religion never occurred to me either at the time or afterwards.In a dire situation, say your child is on the brink due to terminal illness, or you're in a situation where the prognosis is bleak (take your pick: crashing plane, burning house, circling sharks etc)... do any of you feel you may just resort to a form of prayer or some cry to a "higher power" as a last resort?
Not making any assumptions - just curious.
I've recently experienced an extremely tragic event and never found myself looking for answers in religion. In fact I found that an absence of religion made it much easier to deal with. It was a lot easier to accept what had happened without the contradictions and complexities of religion.
I found strength in family, friends, neighbours, the kindness of strangers (including Pistonheads
) and even things like music and social media. If anything, it strengthened my opinion that religion has nothing to offer me.But I accept that I'm lucky in that regard and for those people who find themselves without family or friends I can see what it might offer.
I believe we are social animals and no matter how independent we think we are, in times of difficulty we will look for community. Whether we find that in family, friends, a football club, alcoholics anonymous or church probably just depends on which one advertises it the best.
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