Migration into UK soars
Discussion
KFC said:
I think his age has already caught up with him. Where do you go from here when you're at his age and been in the building trade since leaving school at 15?
And anyway, why should he have had to learn new skills? UK as a whole should have protected him, even purely out of self interest. Nobody wins here, apart from Bogdan and Borat the builders who build a lovely family back home in rural Romania after a few years in UK.
why should he have to learn new skills? really?And anyway, why should he have had to learn new skills? UK as a whole should have protected him, even purely out of self interest. Nobody wins here, apart from Bogdan and Borat the builders who build a lovely family back home in rural Romania after a few years in UK.
the uk should protect him in his already precarious position which he has not sought to protect himself for 35 years?
he has always been in danger from economic downturn or injury and as his age increased he has become more at risk to younger, keener, cheaper UK citizens
...but of course its all the immigrants fault or those who let them come
wc98 said:
the problem here is your average male office/it worker, having no experience of making s
t,building st that takes physical ability and a not inconsiderate time to acquire the necessary skills, thinks that because their skills are transferable to lots of other office based work with minimum retraining required everyone else should be the same.
always gives me a laugh that people that are doing the modern version of what secretaries used to do seem to have such great thought for the value of their own abilities,and such disregard for that of others.
(disclaimer,not all office based males are doing girls jobs, just most of them
)
the guy is a labourer not a master stonemasont,building st that takes physical ability and a not inconsiderate time to acquire the necessary skills, thinks that because their skills are transferable to lots of other office based work with minimum retraining required everyone else should be the same.always gives me a laugh that people that are doing the modern version of what secretaries used to do seem to have such great thought for the value of their own abilities,and such disregard for that of others.
(disclaimer,not all office based males are doing girls jobs, just most of them
)and i hope you aren't suggesting i am an 'average male office/it worker' thank you very much
pork911 said:
why should he have to learn new skills? really?
He has zero experience elsewhere. On relatively low wages. Left school at 15, basically zero qualifications. Has a wife, a house, bills etc etc which all need sorting either way. What do you suppose he should do? Take 5 years out and become a pilot?pork911 said:
the uk should protect him in his already precarious position which he has not sought to protect himself for 35 years?
Yes, the UK should have protected him and people like him. I realise he's not a Pistonheads member so he doesn't have multiple directorships, millions of £ and can change careers at the drop of a hat. But is is just an honest guy wanting to do a fair days work and be paid for it. Purely from the selfish angle (of the taxpayers, rather than my uncle).... how can you possibly justify him being undercut in wages, most of the money being repatriated to Romania or Poland rather than spent locally, and then more taxpayers money being used to keep my uncle afloat? Its ridiculous.
pork911 said:
he has always been in danger from economic downturn or injury and as his age increased he has become more at risk to younger, keener, cheaper UK citizens
minimum wage laws would have prevented some of the damage on competing on price purely with 'home grown' competition. The foreigners just take jobs outside of min wage and are happy for it. Or they're setting up ltd companies and running the jobs through them where those laws don't apply.Sure injury could have wiped out his ability to work, but then I'd expect him to be covered via disability or whatever. Economic downturn could have wrecked his job too. But it didn't. The complaint today (and over the last 10 years or so) is the immigrants.
pork911 said:
...but of course its all the immigrants fault or those who let them come
In this situation, yes it absolutely is the fault of those who opened the floodgates and let immigrants pour in. See the point above about wages now leaving the country, and once working Brits now being state funded.I'm certainly not saying lock all the borders down - it would be pretty hypocritical as a Brit living abroad
But its bizarre to allow that situation above of unchecked flow of unskilled labour. KFC said:
I think his age has already caught up with him. Where do you go from here when you're at his age and been in the building trade since leaving school at 15?
And anyway, why should he have had to learn new skills? UK as a whole should have protected him, even purely out of self interest. Nobody wins here, apart from Bogdan and Borat the builders who build a lovely family back home in rural Romania after a few years in UK.
Remind me where I owe him a living? And thus why the UK should protect him?And anyway, why should he have had to learn new skills? UK as a whole should have protected him, even purely out of self interest. Nobody wins here, apart from Bogdan and Borat the builders who build a lovely family back home in rural Romania after a few years in UK.
What about the interest of his customers who get cheaper homes?
Do you make sure everything you buy is british? Even if it costs more?
Why not, shouldn't you be protecting the jobs of British car workers in Sunderland? Lamb farmers in Cumbria? etc etc
If you don't make sure you are always buying British then you are hypocritical. Not that makes you unique. And if you do then you are naive.
However UKIP and their ilk want to pull up the drawbridge and pretend we are on our own, the economy is global. We are all in competition with the world whether we like it or not
That applies to car companies, farmers, banks, shipyards, and every other private sector company and job. Trying to "protect" them just allows inefficiencies to perpetuate and worsen and makes the eventual comedown all the worse. We learned that in the 1980s.
Beyond hypocritical KFC. Whose job have you taken? How do you justify that while complaining for your uncle?
As for your uncle, he didn’t need to take time out to at least try and climb above Labourer, unless as it seems from your take on it he should expect a job for life, as long as he puts the graft in, and is fit and able, and relatively young....
And there comes the rub. He’s managed to ride out the risks properly until about 10 years ago (when he was 40) and since then all these bloody immigrants etc. Nothing at all to do with his age and lack of skills now is it?
Anyway back to these immigrants, there’s nothing wrong with complaining about them but when you are one yourself...
As for your uncle, he didn’t need to take time out to at least try and climb above Labourer, unless as it seems from your take on it he should expect a job for life, as long as he puts the graft in, and is fit and able, and relatively young....
And there comes the rub. He’s managed to ride out the risks properly until about 10 years ago (when he was 40) and since then all these bloody immigrants etc. Nothing at all to do with his age and lack of skills now is it?
Anyway back to these immigrants, there’s nothing wrong with complaining about them but when you are one yourself...
JustAnotherLogin said:
Remind me where I owe him a living? And thus why the UK should protect him?
I think I already covered this point. Look at it purely from the selfish point of view of the overall tax payer. The UK should have done something to protect him as its a huge loss for taxpayers for a) Bogdan the builder to take his job and repatriate the lions share of the money to romania, and b) Bob the builder to now be solely reliant on state hand outs.I don't even really see how anyone can possibly argue that point.
JustAnotherLogin said:
What about the interest of his customers who get cheaper homes? other private sector company and job. Trying to "protect" them just allows inefficiencies to perpetuate and worsen and makes the eventual comedown all the worse. We learned that in the 1980s.
They selfishly take something for themselves at the cost to everyone else. Its legal so I don't suppose you can blame them for that. It doesn't make it right though and its something that should have been sorted. Unless of course you think its reasonable for every other tax payer to subsidise your house extension.JustAnotherLogin said:
Why not, shouldn't you be protecting the jobs of British car workers in Sunderland? Lamb farmers in Cumbria? etc etc
There is one huge point here which you are conveniently ignoring. Cars can be built in New Zealand and shipped here. Lamb can be grown in New Zealand, frozen and shipped here. You can't send the knocking down of a wall, the serving of a burger or the cleaning of a toilet to Delhi can you?JustAnotherLogin said:
We are all in competition with the world whether we like it or not
Thats just a cop out though, a poor excuse. As like my point above says, you can't outsource cleaning a toilet to Delhi. But you can stop 50 indians wanting to come here and do it for £1 an hour.pork911 said:
Beyond hypocritical KFC. Whose job have you taken? How do you justify that while complaining for your uncle?
Its in no way hypocritical. I'm saying immigration should only be allowed to take place when it suits the host country. I'm in Portugal spending money I earned in UK. I'm exactly the type of foreigner a country should be seeking, I'm not taking a job from anyone at all yet I'm spending a fortune while I'm here.pork911 said:
As for your uncle, he didn’t need to take time out to at least try and climb above Labourer, unless as it seems from your take on it he should expect a job for life, as long as he puts the graft in, and is fit and able, and relatively young....
And there comes the rub. He’s managed to ride out the risks properly until about 10 years ago (when he was 40) and since then all these bloody immigrants etc. Nothing at all to do with his age and lack of skills now is it?
He's been in charge of crews of labourers. What he's doing isn't completely unskilled. He's worked as a labourer, plasterer, building brick walls, etc etc. Climbing up to being in charge of a crew of plasterers is still no use if a crew of romanian plasterers come in and eat your lunch though is it.And there comes the rub. He’s managed to ride out the risks properly until about 10 years ago (when he was 40) and since then all these bloody immigrants etc. Nothing at all to do with his age and lack of skills now is it?
pork911 said:
Anyway back to these immigrants, there’s nothing wrong with complaining about them but when you are one yourself...
I'd say I'm an expat, not an immigrant. But however you cut it, I'm worth infinitely more to the host country than some unskilled labourer who's going to force a native out of a job!HonestIago said:
Axionknight said:
As control of our borders to EU migrants remains in the hands of an undemocratic third party this should come as no surprise to anybody, nor will the trend change, in my opinion, as other European countries continue to economically suffer and by comparison, we do not, allegedly.
Non-EU immigration has also increased. Cameron has done nothing to reduce third-world immigration despite having the power to do so. He is an enemy of the British people.t Clegg and you may well see some actual changes for the better instead of bleeding heart human right loving drivel.
JustAnotherLogin said:
Remind me where I owe him a living? And thus why the UK should protect him?
What about the interest of his customers who get cheaper homes?
Do you make sure everything you buy is british? Even if it costs more?
Why not, shouldn't you be protecting the jobs of British car workers in Sunderland? Lamb farmers in Cumbria? etc etc
If you don't make sure you are always buying British then you are hypocritical. Not that makes you unique. And if you do then you are naive.
However UKIP and their ilk want to pull up the drawbridge and pretend we are on our own, the economy is global. We are all in competition with the world whether we like it or not
That applies to car companies, farmers, banks, shipyards, and every other private sector company and job. Trying to "protect" them just allows inefficiencies to perpetuate and worsen and makes the eventual comedown all the worse. We learned that in the 1980s.
Free trade is different to free movement of labour.What about the interest of his customers who get cheaper homes?
Do you make sure everything you buy is british? Even if it costs more?
Why not, shouldn't you be protecting the jobs of British car workers in Sunderland? Lamb farmers in Cumbria? etc etc
If you don't make sure you are always buying British then you are hypocritical. Not that makes you unique. And if you do then you are naive.
However UKIP and their ilk want to pull up the drawbridge and pretend we are on our own, the economy is global. We are all in competition with the world whether we like it or not
That applies to car companies, farmers, banks, shipyards, and every other private sector company and job. Trying to "protect" them just allows inefficiencies to perpetuate and worsen and makes the eventual comedown all the worse. We learned that in the 1980s.
To pretend our economic competitiveness is reliant on mass migration is entirely false. In terms of highly skilled labour UKIP claim that only 20,000 or so of the immigrants last year would have passed the Australian points system.
In terms of our tradable goods and services it is hard to think of any significant sector aside from Tourism reliant on low skilled labour.
In regards to housing the price of land is far more significant than paying builders a few less pounds an hour and what do you think will happen to land prices with net migration at a 1/2 million a year.
The case for mass migration has been built on the supposed economic benefits of mass migration. A case built on foundations of sand.
DeanR32 said:
To everyone posting on this thread, what do you think the best solution would be to cure this so called "problem" we have?
I believe we should have a skills list and only accept people for the skill shortages that are in demand, but then if that was the case my wife who is an EU national came to the UK around 12 years ago with just A levels, she is fluent in 4 languages and held an office job until she started her own business that is going well. She has never been out of work or needed to rely on the government, if we did have a points system she probley would not have been allowed entry and contributed to the UK like she has done. The flip side is that you will get the spongers/ cash in hand laborers etc sending money home. So I don't know whats the best solution. JagLover said:
To pretend our economic competitiveness is reliant on mass migration is entirely false. In terms of highly skilled labour UKIP claim that only 20,000 or so of the immigrants last year would have passed the Australian points system.
A claim for which UKIP has no supporting evedence.Of those I know who have come to the UK from the EU in the last 4 years 90% would have passed the Australian points based system.
KFC said:
He's been in charge of crews of labourers. What he's doing isn't completely unskilled. He's worked as a labourer, plasterer, building brick walls, etc etc. Climbing up to being in charge of a crew of plasterers is still no use if a crew of romanian plasterers come in and eat your lunch though is it.
So now the mythical uncle is not unskilled!! He a plasterer as well!!I cannot speak for the whole of the UK but where I live plasterers are in high demand and wages are good and rising because of a shortage.
DeanR32 said:
To everyone posting on this thread, what do you think the best solution would be to cure this so called "problem" we have?
A solution to which problem since immigration takes many forms. Do you mean work visas, family visas, free movement of labour within the EU, asylum seekers, illegal overstaying, student visas?
TLandCruiser said:
The flip side is that you will get the spongers/ cash in hand laborers etc sending money home. So I don't know whats the best solution.
I don't see the problem with the latter - many British people have families abroad who they visit/send money to. The former - well a points/skills-based immigration system would weed out more of the spongers. Unfortunately such a system is incompatible with being in the EU - here lies the problem.Mrr T said:
Of those I know who have come to the UK from the EU in the last 4 years 90% would have passed the Australian points based system.
That's purely anecdotal. I could say the same about any country in the world - but I live in leafy SW London.Edited by fido on Wednesday 4th March 10:30
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