Should we stop giving bravery medals to soldiers?
Discussion
I suppose it makes all of us in civvy street more contented that there is some way of recognising that little bit of extra effort put in by certain individuals. Even though the default setting for ALL of our armed forces on the front line is a level of abject fear that would see the rest of us crumble within moments.
It probably does make your average dedicated serviceman/woman squirm with embarrassment when receiving these commendations - but it does rather put footballs Man-of-the-Match award into perspective doesn't it.
It probably does make your average dedicated serviceman/woman squirm with embarrassment when receiving these commendations - but it does rather put footballs Man-of-the-Match award into perspective doesn't it.
Pothole said:
s you should you, by your own standards....
Not really, the OP asked a question which nobody was asking: should the military award bravery medals.Regardless of my opinions on banker bonus's or oscars, I'm not suggesting either should be stopped since they are just doing their jobs as the OP is suggesting for the military.
It's not for us to decide, its for the military. They aren't running X Factor for the benefit of public opinion, they are rewarding their troops as they see fit.
There are clearly a lot of backslapping award ceremonies for reasons much less deserving, and since nobody is suggesting they should be banned exactly why should the services be stripped of their brag rags?
T0nup said:
The question is really IF the award of a medal really means that much? In honesty, I bet it doesn't. Do ya think the L/Cpl Kealey in the news just today for recieving the VC, was giving a toss about what you or I might think back home? He did what he did for the guys he was on the ground with, and their thanks and recognition I wager is worth bucket louds more than any medal.
That^^ is pretty much the crux of my pointWinstonWolf said:
Tell you what, why don't you go out to somewhere where you'll get shot at, probably lose a limb or two to an IED and see a few of your closest mates killed or maimed for life.
Once you've done it for a few months come back and tell us if you still feel the same...
Easy there tiger, think you need to reread what I wrote! Once you've done it for a few months come back and tell us if you still feel the same...
Anyway, funnily enough I have a friend who was blown up and maimed (although by miracle doctor's work over several years you'd hardly know it now, truly amazing) and others who have lost friends/colleagues, and not one of them has ever made any kind of big deal about medals etc. The closest it's got has been a link to the honours list on FB the other day with a "Well done mate"
nyxster said:
You miss the point,
Decorations aren't awarded by joe public, they are recommended by and awarded by the services to their own people in recognition of them going above and beyond the call of duty.
Don't mistake modesty for lack of pride. I doubt there is a single Para past or present who isn't beaming with pride at one of their own having upheld the highest standards of their Regiment.
Seriously, why shouldn't they have awards? God knows we have enough fawning over celebrities with the brits, oscars, golden globes etc, so why shouldn't the military be allowed the same courtesy?
OP should probably wind his neck in, its not for the great unwashed to decide how the military honour their own; be it by medals or promotions.
Lets face it, bankers get themselves a nice fat oat on the back for simply turning up to work every year and lising vast sums of cash. Being given a decoration for risking your life to save another's is worth far more, yet rewarded much less.
I take your point, but I am not missing anything. What I am getting at is that I think there is a good argument that the fact that Joe Public has got anything to do with it in terms of media coverage, political speeches, fawning, putting people on a pedestal etc is more to do with Joe Public's selfish need to feel good than about the soldier's needs or wants. If these chaps and chapesses were being honoured by their own in a dignified private ceremony, you'd not hear me complaining, quite the opposite. In fact I think the very fact that we're involved at all in any way is laughable when none of us have the faintest idea of what they've been through and never could unless we did it ourselves. Essentially I'm saying that we're not worthy, and that trying to pretend we are is not needed or wanted by themDecorations aren't awarded by joe public, they are recommended by and awarded by the services to their own people in recognition of them going above and beyond the call of duty.
Don't mistake modesty for lack of pride. I doubt there is a single Para past or present who isn't beaming with pride at one of their own having upheld the highest standards of their Regiment.
Seriously, why shouldn't they have awards? God knows we have enough fawning over celebrities with the brits, oscars, golden globes etc, so why shouldn't the military be allowed the same courtesy?
OP should probably wind his neck in, its not for the great unwashed to decide how the military honour their own; be it by medals or promotions.
Lets face it, bankers get themselves a nice fat oat on the back for simply turning up to work every year and lising vast sums of cash. Being given a decoration for risking your life to save another's is worth far more, yet rewarded much less.
Mario149 said:
In light of the recent VC and other awards, I've been thinking. The premise might be controversial, but bear with me on this one. Maybe a better title should be "Do we only give medals to soldiers because of our own self interest?", but the arguments for them are the same. The "we" in that is us civilians and government for the record
Now before I start, this is absolutely not a dig at servicemen at all, it's actually a dig at all of us who are not in uniform as you'll see.
Here's the thing for me, every soldier from any conflict who has won an MC, VC or similar that I've seen interviewed or read interviews of them always exhibits the same characteristics.
1) They were never brave in the stereotypical sense that we see it and never claim to have been. To a (wo)man they say that their training kicked in, they didn't really think or process being scared, they just saw what they had to do, and went and did it.
2) They are always at pains to point out that they just happened to be in the right place at the right time, and any of their mates would have done the same and could be standing there instead of them at this moment.
3) They always seem at best desperately uncomfortable with the attention they're getting and the special treatment, and at worst actually start despising those (us) who are putting them on this pedestal.
It seems to me that these (wo)men would rather just receive the acknowledgement, gratitude and respect of the people that were with them, who do their job and know what it's like i.e. the people that they care about and the people that matter, and that the rest of us should just get lost and leave them alone.
Sometimes I feel like we're giving them these honours solely to salve our consciences, to somehow justify us putting them in those situations, to justify putting further people in those situations in the future, to somehow make something good about people killing and maiming and being killed and maimed.
Receiving a bit of metal and a "well done" from some dignitary who means nothing to you and the fawning "thanks" of a whole load of people you've never met who haven't got the first clue about what you went went through seems vacuous at best and insulting at worst.
In short, I am fairly sure our input is neither needed nor wanted, unless it's directed to help those who maybe weren't so fortunate.
I say all this as someone who might have a little more insight than the average person as
- I was "in" (if you can call it that!) the army for 10 years or so via cadets and OTC etc sop have at least a small idea about army life
- I have many friends who are in the forces proper
- I have friends who were severely injured who I now see bantering on FB with their mates who picked up what was left of them in the dust and saved their lives
- I have friends who have lost colleagues
Anyway, just a few thoughts
Anyone else feel the same? Or not?
Thanks for the post. It's a subject that I have given no thought to at all. There are some interesting points you raise. Now before I start, this is absolutely not a dig at servicemen at all, it's actually a dig at all of us who are not in uniform as you'll see.
Here's the thing for me, every soldier from any conflict who has won an MC, VC or similar that I've seen interviewed or read interviews of them always exhibits the same characteristics.
1) They were never brave in the stereotypical sense that we see it and never claim to have been. To a (wo)man they say that their training kicked in, they didn't really think or process being scared, they just saw what they had to do, and went and did it.
2) They are always at pains to point out that they just happened to be in the right place at the right time, and any of their mates would have done the same and could be standing there instead of them at this moment.
3) They always seem at best desperately uncomfortable with the attention they're getting and the special treatment, and at worst actually start despising those (us) who are putting them on this pedestal.
It seems to me that these (wo)men would rather just receive the acknowledgement, gratitude and respect of the people that were with them, who do their job and know what it's like i.e. the people that they care about and the people that matter, and that the rest of us should just get lost and leave them alone.
Sometimes I feel like we're giving them these honours solely to salve our consciences, to somehow justify us putting them in those situations, to justify putting further people in those situations in the future, to somehow make something good about people killing and maiming and being killed and maimed.
Receiving a bit of metal and a "well done" from some dignitary who means nothing to you and the fawning "thanks" of a whole load of people you've never met who haven't got the first clue about what you went went through seems vacuous at best and insulting at worst.
In short, I am fairly sure our input is neither needed nor wanted, unless it's directed to help those who maybe weren't so fortunate.
I say all this as someone who might have a little more insight than the average person as
- I was "in" (if you can call it that!) the army for 10 years or so via cadets and OTC etc sop have at least a small idea about army life
- I have many friends who are in the forces proper
- I have friends who were severely injured who I now see bantering on FB with their mates who picked up what was left of them in the dust and saved their lives
- I have friends who have lost colleagues
Anyway, just a few thoughts
Anyone else feel the same? Or not?The record number of VCs awarded in the battle of Rourke's Drift was to take the pressure of the report of the worst defeat the British Army had ever suffered the day before at Islewander.
There is the macho aspect of ribbing by your colleagues, and this might well generate the modesty, but there is something surely in actions where one soldier saves the lives of others in his unit?
Could it be better rewarded, in a way that might be appreciated by all concerned?
My father was awarded a medal for shooting down the highest plane up until then - and up until the end VE day - from the ground. He was on experimental radar controlled AA guns and, at a distance of over 7 miles, he was not, he said, under personal threat. He was embarrassed by it. He got on Pathe News, which pleased his family, and that was better for him. So I see one of your points.
As I say, I found it a thought provoking post. So I'll give it some thought.
Mario149 said:
I take your point, but I am not missing anything. What I am getting at is that I think there is a good argument that the fact that Joe Public has got anything to do with it in terms of media coverage, political speeches, fawning, putting people on a pedestal etc is more to do with Joe Public's selfish need to feel good than about the soldier's needs or wants. If these chaps and chapesses were being honoured by their own in a dignified private ceremony, you'd not hear me complaining, quite the opposite. In fact I think the very fact that we're involved at all in any way is laughable when none of us have the faintest idea of what they've been through and never could unless we did it ourselves. Essentially I'm saying that we're not worthy, and that trying to pretend we are is not needed or wanted by them
Then i misunderstood your point and apologise.And i actually agree with you. Thus is down to the medua obsession with trying to turn everyone into a celebrity ; look at the nonsense over Jihadi John.
I'm pretty sure most people in the military would prefer to avoid the modern media circus following everything they do, look at the fuss the tabloids make over the SAS; they absolutely resent the fact Thatcher made them a public spectacle for her own political ends and the media obsession with them, with good reason, when you've got the Sun & Daily Mail printing handy cut out and keep maps of where they are operating against IS etc then it makes their job more difficult,
So yes, i agree, i think it should be a non-media event for colleagues and family only. Given what happened to poor Lee Rigby, i doubt anyone wants to be a "celebrity squaddie'.
I don't agree. Just because the public tend to gawp at medal winners, that doesn't mean that the medal winners themselves are not deserving of recognition, and just because they invariably come across as exceptionally modest and self-effacing, that doesn't mean they're not proud of their actions and their units, just as they colleagues will be proud of them.
If you want to see the importance that many troops attach to these decorations and what has been done to earn them, just take a look at the utter contempt with which they hold "Walts", who wear medals they haven't earned whilst trying to claim they do.
On a more personal note, whilst I never met my great grandfather or my great, great uncle, I like to think that receiving Military Medals in France in 1916 might've made them feel at least a little valued and recognised amongst the undoubted horror they had to contend with.
If you want to see the importance that many troops attach to these decorations and what has been done to earn them, just take a look at the utter contempt with which they hold "Walts", who wear medals they haven't earned whilst trying to claim they do.
On a more personal note, whilst I never met my great grandfather or my great, great uncle, I like to think that receiving Military Medals in France in 1916 might've made them feel at least a little valued and recognised amongst the undoubted horror they had to contend with.
bad company said:
Derek Smith said:
the worst defeat the British Army had ever suffered the day before at Islewander.
Think you mean - Battle of Isandlwana (alternative spelling: Isandhlwana). 
Thank you Google
V
Troubleatmill said:
In the US forces - you used to get a medal for crossing Northern Ireland airspace. ( War zone )
It is rumoured that you could get a medal for ironing your underpants the right way.
I believe we are far more prudent on handing out medals.
The initial recommendation for proposing an award will have come from inside the nominee's unit.
So - if they are happy with it.
I have heard that several of our royals have been awarded medals for eating all their vegetables, presented by the queen no less.It is rumoured that you could get a medal for ironing your underpants the right way.
I believe we are far more prudent on handing out medals.
The initial recommendation for proposing an award will have come from inside the nominee's unit.
So - if they are happy with it.
Derek Smith said:
bad company said:
Derek Smith said:
the worst defeat the British Army had ever suffered the day before at Islewander.
Think you mean - Battle of Isandlwana (alternative spelling: Isandhlwana). Thank you Google
Yes, OK, the film industry takes poetic licence to make things more compelling, and I suppose at least they didn't try to credit the US Marine Corps with saving our plucky but ultimately doomed lads on the day, but the portrayal of Hook as a drunken, lazy malingerer just to make the story a bit more interesting when he was in fact a model soldier and a Methodist lay preacher is just utterly beneath contempt.
To make matters worse, Hook's Granddaughter was still alive when the film was released. Instead of getting to see her grandfather rightly immortalised on film, she walked out of the premiere half way through, distressed by the completely untrue hatchet job they'd done on him.
nyxster said:
Mario149 said:
I take your point, but I am not missing anything. What I am getting at is that I think there is a good argument that the fact that Joe Public has got anything to do with it in terms of media coverage, political speeches, fawning, putting people on a pedestal etc is more to do with Joe Public's selfish need to feel good than about the soldier's needs or wants. If these chaps and chapesses were being honoured by their own in a dignified private ceremony, you'd not hear me complaining, quite the opposite. In fact I think the very fact that we're involved at all in any way is laughable when none of us have the faintest idea of what they've been through and never could unless we did it ourselves. Essentially I'm saying that we're not worthy, and that trying to pretend we are is not needed or wanted by them
Then i misunderstood your point and apologise.And i actually agree with you. Thus is down to the medua obsession with trying to turn everyone into a celebrity ; look at the nonsense over Jihadi John.
I'm pretty sure most people in the military would prefer to avoid the modern media circus following everything they do, look at the fuss the tabloids make over the SAS; they absolutely resent the fact Thatcher made them a public spectacle for her own political ends and the media obsession with them, with good reason, when you've got the Sun & Daily Mail printing handy cut out and keep maps of where they are operating against IS etc then it makes their job more difficult,
So yes, i agree, i think it should be a non-media event for colleagues and family only. Given what happened to poor Lee Rigby, i doubt anyone wants to be a "celebrity squaddie'.
and 
SlipStream77 said:
Why? There are plenty of very brave people who are not in the armed forces.
Clearly what you say is true, mine was more of a sweeping generalisation. While there are people in civvy life who are clearly brave in many senses of the word while doing their jobs, the average person I would hazard is not, myself included. Biggest issue I have to deal with at the moment is whether the tube is operating a "good service" during my commute in 
Mario149 said:
SlipStream77 said:
Why? There are plenty of very brave people who are not in the armed forces.
Clearly what you say is true, mine was more of a sweeping generalisation. While there are people in civvy life who are clearly brave in many senses of the word while doing their jobs, the average person I would hazard is not, myself included. Biggest issue I have to deal with at the moment is whether the tube is operating a "good service" during my commute in 
Reviving my own thread: found this on the BBC and watched it, was very good. Deals with US soldiers/veterans who are uncomfortable with the label hero (amongst other things it looks at), but I'm sure it's equally applicable to UK personnel, if not more so as we're probably more reserved as a culture.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/features...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/features...
nyxster said:
It's not for us to decide, its for the military. They aren't running X Factor for the benefit of public opinion, they are rewarding their troops as they see fit.
I'll be vague. You might know, but lets not post it. These are my impressions. Others may find him adorable.I've met someone who has a VC. He's not active in the Army anymore. My interpretation of him was he thought he was more special than anybody else. And people around me would fawn over him because "he's a hero"
He was pretty demanding in what he expected people to do for him. HE plays on it to get what he wants elsewhere in his life too. I likened him to the "Lotto Lout" types. Win the lottery, still chavs, just now chavs with money/fame. Not my cup of tea at all!I looked into the story about the award. Whilst it was not a fun day at work. He broke operating protocol on the day and because of that caused unnecessary serious injury to one of his colleagues. That has not been forgotten by his former colleagues from I can find via the internet forums
People from the Army at the time suggested that in this case it was very much about PR!
Like I say. No Names!
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