CAGE Jihadi Supporters

[Dr Solomon]

andymadmak said:

Dr Solomon said:

There is no excuse for killing innocent people, however, let's not ignore the fact that this chap (as is coming to light) was no doubt being harassed by the security services. Are we that stupid to think they just said "hi, how you you doing pal?". If he had no criminal record, no record of any extremist activity and there is evidence that he was 'approached' by security services after which his life/plans went pear shaped - I guess then it must all be coincidental that he suddenly turned into a wrong'un after?

Wow. Just wow.

So, because this fellow was approached by the security services it somehow explains his subsequent actions? Have you considered for one moment that perhaps the security services might have had valid reasons to have this person under surveillance? In fact, as it turns out the security services were on the money in their suspicions.
Your post contains the language of the apologists. " Harrassed by the security services" is odious double speak which goes on to form your half arsed justification for his having cut the heads off people. "His life went pear shaped" .. Really? That's any kind of reason? Yes, yes, I know the opening line of your post says there is no excuse...but then everything you write after that is one long excuse. Disgraceful. Shameful. Mealy mouthed apologist clap trap.



Edited for crappy speelering

Edited by andymadmak on Sunday 1st March 16:52

Do you think the security services are nice people? Do you think people who are 'approached' are treated nicely whether that be physically or emotionally in respect of their day-to-day lives? This is part of the problem with all this cloak and dagger stuff - whilst it works for certain threats, for other perceived or potential threats (or just 'recruitment') it can causes alienation (intended as part of the 'recruitment' process), however, there is also the risk of back-fire when you back certain (perhaps already unstable) individuals into a corner.

[audidoody]

Dr Solomon said:

… let's not ignore the fact that this chap (as is coming to light) was no doubt being harassed by the security services. Are we that stupid to think they just said "hi, how you you doing pal?". If he had no criminal record, no record of any extremist activity and there is evidence that he was 'approached' by security services after which his life/plans went pear shaped - I guess then it must all be coincidental that he suddenly turned into a wrong'un after?

[andymadmak]

Dr Solomon said:

andymadmak said:

Dr Solomon said:

There is no excuse for killing innocent people, however, let's not ignore the fact that this chap (as is coming to light) was no doubt being harassed by the security services. Are we that stupid to think they just said "hi, how you you doing pal?". If he had no criminal record, no record of any extremist activity and there is evidence that he was 'approached' by security services after which his life/plans went pear shaped - I guess then it must all be coincidental that he suddenly turned into a wrong'un after?

Wow. Just wow.

So, because this fellow was approached by the security services it somehow explains his subsequent actions? Have you considered for one moment that perhaps the security services might have had valid reasons to have this person under surveillance? In fact, as it turns out the security services were on the money in their suspicions.
Your post contains the language of the apologists. " Harrassed by the security services" is odious double speak which goes on to form your half arsed justification for his having cut the heads off people. "His life went pear shaped" .. Really? That's any kind of reason? Yes, yes, I know the opening line of your post says there is no excuse...but then everything you write after that is one long excuse. Disgraceful. Shameful. Mealy mouthed apologist clap trap.



Edited for crappy speelering

Edited by andymadmak on Sunday 1st March 16:52

Do you think the security services are nice people? Do you think people who are 'approached' are treated nicely whether that be physically or emotionally in respect of their day-to-day lives? This is part of the problem with all this cloak and dagger stuff - whilst it works for certain threats, for other perceived or potential threats (or just 'recruitment') it can causes alienation (intended as part of the 'recruitment' process), however, there is also the risk of back-fire when you back certain (perhaps already unstable) individuals into a corner.

And why do you think he was approached in the first place?

Keep digging.

[Chlamydia]

Dr Solomon said:

Do you think the security services are nice people? Do you think people who are 'approached' are treated nicely whether that be physically or emotionally in respect of their day-to-day lives? This is part of the problem with all this cloak and dagger stuff - whilst it works for certain threats, for other perceived or potential threats (or just 'recruitment') it can causes alienation (intended as part of the 'recruitment' process), however, there is also the risk of back-fire when you back certain (perhaps already unstable) individuals into a corner.

How was he 'backed into a corner'? What a load of balls.

[Cheese Mechanic]

Dr Solomon said:

Do you think the security services are nice people? Do you think people who are 'approached' are treated nicely whether that be physically or emotionally in respect of their day-to-day lives? This is part of the problem with all this cloak and dagger stuff - whilst it works for certain threats, for other perceived or potential threats (or just 'recruitment') it can causes alienation (intended as part of the 'recruitment' process), however, there is also the risk of back-fire when you back certain (perhaps already unstable) individuals into a corner.

Actually, he came to light and received security services attention when he tried to join a Somali
Terror group, likely Al shahbab.

So, he got attention because his behaviour deemed it prudent. Never mind though, eh? You go on, keep making excuses for him after all, he is the victim, and the poor people who's heads he has sawn off deserved it, cos he thought so. You are one twisted , deluded, individual.

[Mojocvh]

Dr Solomon said:

andymadmak said:

Dr Solomon said:

There is no excuse for killing innocent people, however, let's not ignore the fact that this chap (as is coming to light) was no doubt being harassed by the security services. Are we that stupid to think they just said "hi, how you you doing pal?". If he had no criminal record, no record of any extremist activity and there is evidence that he was 'approached' by security services after which his life/plans went pear shaped - I guess then it must all be coincidental that he suddenly turned into a wrong'un after?

Wow. Just wow.

So, because this fellow was approached by the security services it somehow explains his subsequent actions? Have you considered for one moment that perhaps the security services might have had valid reasons to have this person under surveillance? In fact, as it turns out the security services were on the money in their suspicions.
Your post contains the language of the apologists. " Harrassed by the security services" is odious double speak which goes on to form your half arsed justification for his having cut the heads off people. "His life went pear shaped" .. Really? That's any kind of reason? Yes, yes, I know the opening line of your post says there is no excuse...but then everything you write after that is one long excuse. Disgraceful. Shameful. Mealy mouthed apologist clap trap.



Edited for crappy speelering

Edited by andymadmak on Sunday 1st March 16:52

Do you think the security services are nice people? Do you think people who are 'approached' are treated nicely whether that be physically or emotionally in respect of their day-to-day lives? This is part of the problem with all this cloak and dagger stuff - whilst it works for certain threats, for other perceived or potential threats (or just 'recruitment') it can causes alienation (intended as part of the 'recruitment' process), however, there is also the risk of back-fire when you back certain (perhaps already unstable) individuals into a corner.

treated nicely----is that what you think should be the approach then??

I have no doubt there were more than enough markers for the kid gloves to come off.

[jmorgan]

Heck, on that basis police stops for a dodgy tyre, well, we had better be careful we do not radicalise the rest of the yoofs of today.

[anonymous-user]

Perhaps if we didn't arrest any muslims ever then they wouldn't turn against us ?
It probably sounds radical but maybe we should try it for say 2 years see if we get on better with the Islamic types.

[Dr Solomon]

See this is part of the problem - we blindly trust what we are told by the security services just so that we can be encouraged to believe in releasing what little we have left of our liberty and freedoms. We've seen it time and time again that we are lied to yet we still lap it up without question. It's sad that critical analysis and thinking is being dumbed down.

Why was he 'approached' in the first place?

These days loads of Moslems have been approached for 'recruitment' - most being just regular law abiding folk. So with this chap, is it just because one of his mates had a telephone conversation with Hussein Osman on the day of the attacks?

What happened to him?

He was refused entry into Tanzania, detained and interrogated; then interrogated in Amsterdam, they scuppered his plans to marry his fiance in Kuwait as well as his previously secured contract for work there - he was refused entry to Kuwait (where he was born, several times). He was repeatedly interrogated in the UK and attempted to be 'recruited', his family were harassed by the security services too. A series of events took place which the recently publicised emails show that it was a sequential process of breaking down an individual to the point where he considered suicide.

Now, I am not saying these 'methods' don't have their place but just as with 'stop and search', if you don't use them intelligently, things can back-fire.. there is a risk. If he was doing something wrong, why not arrest him?

Criminals should be arrested and suspects should be arrested and taken through due process. However, 'recruitment' of individuals to act as spies carries risk and one of these risks.

[Cheese Mechanic]

Dr Solomon said:

See this is part of the problem - we blindly trust what we are told by the security services just so that we can be encouraged to believe in releasing what little we have left of our liberty and freedoms. We've seen it time and time again that we are lied to yet we still lap it up without question. It's sad that critical analysis and thinking is being dumbed down.

Why was he 'approached' in the first place?

These days loads of Moslems have been approached for 'recruitment' - most being just regular law abiding folk. So with this chap, is it just because one of his mates had a telephone conversation with Hussein Osman on the day of the attacks?

What happened to him?

He was refused entry into Tanzania, detained and interrogated; then interrogated in Amsterdam, they scuppered his plans to marry his fiance in Kuwait as well as his previously secured contract for work there - he was refused entry to Kuwait (where he was born, several times). He was repeatedly interrogated in the UK and attempted to be 'recruited', his family were harassed by the security services too. A series of events took place which the recently publicised emails show that it was a sequential process of breaking down an individual to the point where he considered suicide.

Now, I am not saying these 'methods' don't have their place but just as with 'stop and search', if you don't use them intelligently, things can back-fire.. there is a risk. If he was doing something wrong, why not arrest him?

Criminals should be arrested and suspects should be arrested and taken through due process. However, 'recruitment' of individuals to act as spies carries risk and one of these risks.

Yep, lets leave them alone and let them do as they wish, never mind if they kill people as they want, heck, they have rights, you know.

I think we have one, a full scale nutter. Mods?

[Dr Solomon]

Cheese Mechanic said:

Yep, lets leave them alone and let them do as they wish, never mind if they kill people as they want, heck, they have rights, you know.

I think we have one, a full scale nutter. Mods?

Wind your neck in - if you care to read what I wrote, why not arrest him if he was doing something wrong?

[Mermaid]

Cheese Mechanic said:

Yep, lets leave them alone and let them do as they wish, never mind if they kill people as they want, heck, they have rights, you know.

I think we have one, a full scale nutter. Mods?

Tell your MP, tell your PM - not the Mods.

[jmorgan]

People have been approached and recruited since spying was invented. I do not see a trail of serial unhinged through history because of this.

[Cheese Mechanic]

Dr Solomon said:

Wind your neck in - if you care to read what I wrote, why not arrest him if he was doing something wrong?

Not my neck thats out, its some crank making excuses for a murdering lunatic. Your posts need flagging up.

[Dr Solomon]

Cheese Mechanic said:

Dr Solomon said:

Wind your neck in - if you care to read what I wrote, why not arrest him if he was doing something wrong?

Not my neck thats out, its some crank making excuses for a murdering lunatic. Your posts need flagging up.

I am not making excuses, I am just saying we need to stop our tunnel vision.

Anyway, bite me.

[Cheese Mechanic]

Dr Solomon said:

I am not making excuses, I am just saying we need to stop our tunnel vision.
Anyway, bite me.

Course we do, we all have excuses for murdering nutters. Bite you? Why should I do that? You are the one extolling violence.

Nobody knows who you are , but after your looney tirade, somebody will. Thats your problem like JJ, self made.

[andymadmak]

I suggest, Dr Soloman, that he was approached because he put himself on the radar, either through his own actions or the actions of his close associates. As such he was the architect of his own position with the security forces.
Don't want to be "harrassed by MI5? Then don't do stuff that will get them interested in you. Its hardly rocket science now is it?
Lots of muslims get approached do they? Ok, Well, millions more do not. Ever wondered why MI5 is not stalking tMr Hussein in the local news agents? COS HE IS OF NO INTEREST, AND IS NOT MAKING HIMSELF A TARGET FOR INTEREST...THAT'S WHY!!!!!!!!!

As for what happened to him after that, well, diddums. Really, diddums. He put himself in the position and frankly I would rather MI5 stayed on the case of people like him rather than be scraping lumps of my fellow citizens off the pavement when another one like JJ decides to take offence at something trifling.

Nothing, and I mean NOTHING justifies cutting the heads off innocent people. The fact that you can rationalise a way from him being miffed at MI5 for them disrupting his (probably bogus) job/marriage etc to him cutting the heads off aid workers says everything we need to know about you and the values by which you live your life.
You write in an intelligent fashion. So, that being the case, perhaps you could set out the circumstances under which you would be prepared to kill a person in defence of your own religious beliefs?

[anonymous-user]

Dunc B said:

Absolutely, maybe a little later VK and LBC will come back with another patronising non-answer to the last few posts!

Before you get on your high horse (too late?) remember I only asked someone a question.
So Don4l can question but cannot be questioned?
Anyway, LBC is right not to indulge Don4l in his silly little witch-hunt. Constantly having a go at people who don't quite see eye to eye with you makes a thread become very tedious and effectively the thread leads nowhere useful.

[Dr Solomon]

Cheese Mechanic said:

Nobody knows who you are , but after your looney tirade, somebody will. Thats your problem like JJ, self made.

Sounds like a veiled attempt at a threat.. and you call me a looney.

[andymadmak]

Dr Solomon said:

Cheese Mechanic said:

Nobody knows who you are , but after your looney tirade, somebody will. Thats your problem like JJ, self made.

Sounds like a veiled attempt at a threat.. and you call me a looney.

I think it's clear what Cheese Mechanic was saying. : basically if you post on the internet anything that suggests you can support, justify, rationalise or take part in extremist / terrorist activities then someone in spook HQ is gonna spot that and act on you accordingly.
JJ presumably did just that, and that's what put him on radar.

But you knew that anyway..