OXFORD 'Grooming' Serious Case Review - heads to roll?

[CoolHands]

I haven't read all this thread or the others like it - but I have had to work with some girls who are the vulnerable types involved in these incidents. Whilst I realise it is easy to criticise the 'authorities' I suggest some of you have no idea how difficult it is to get them to comply with what you want. Eg you cannot force them to attend school. You can't prevent them from walking out of school if you do get them there! You cannot prevent them from 'getting out' of their care homes in the evenings. They will disappear for 2 days at a time. They will abuse drink and drugs. They will go shoplifting. etc.

Most of them are damaged, and behave in very difficult ways. Blaming the people that try to look after them in their teenage years is rather dimwitted if you ask me. What we (as a society) should be asking is if we don't like what's happening what can we do to change the systems that are in place? It is rather complicated. Blaming the Head of social services that earns £2 million quid a year or whatever the Mail claims, doesn't really help. These teenagers are not locked up, and that wouldn't be a solution in itself anyway.

[RobinOakapple]

CoolHands said:

I haven't read all this thread or the others like it - but I have had to work with some girls who are the vulnerable types involved in these incidents. Whilst I realise it is easy to criticise the 'authorities' I suggest some of you have no idea how difficult it is to get them to comply with what you want. Eg you cannot force them to attend school. You can't prevent them from walking out of school if you do get them there! You cannot prevent them from 'getting out' of their care homes in the evenings. They will disappear for 2 days at a time. They will abuse drink and drugs. They will go shoplifting. etc.

Most of them are damaged, and behave in very difficult ways. Blaming the people that try to look after them in their teenage years is rather dimwitted if you ask me. What we (as a society) should be asking is if we don't like what's happening what can we do to change the systems that are in place? It is rather complicated. Blaming the Head of social services that earns £2 million quid a year or whatever the Mail claims, doesn't really help. These teenagers are not locked up, and that wouldn't be a solution in itself anyway.

Good post, essence of problem summed up nicely. Won't wash with those who want someone with authority to blame, though.

[Claudia Skies]

CoolHands said:

I haven't read all this thread or the others like it - but I have had to work with some girls who are the vulnerable types involved in these incidents. Whilst I realise it is easy to criticise the 'authorities' I suggest some of you have no idea how difficult it is to get them to comply with what you want.

^^^ This. Some posts have shown a complete failure to understand this very difficult side of the issue.

[Foliage]

RobinOakapple said:

CoolHands said:

I haven't read all this thread or the others like it - but I have had to work with some girls who are the vulnerable types involved in these incidents. Whilst I realise it is easy to criticise the 'authorities' I suggest some of you have no idea how difficult it is to get them to comply with what you want. Eg you cannot force them to attend school. You can't prevent them from walking out of school if you do get them there! You cannot prevent them from 'getting out' of their care homes in the evenings. They will disappear for 2 days at a time. They will abuse drink and drugs. They will go shoplifting. etc.

Most of them are damaged, and behave in very difficult ways. Blaming the people that try to look after them in their teenage years is rather dimwitted if you ask me. What we (as a society) should be asking is if we don't like what's happening what can we do to change the systems that are in place? It is rather complicated. Blaming the Head of social services that earns £2 million quid a year or whatever the Mail claims, doesn't really help. These teenagers are not locked up, and that wouldn't be a solution in itself anyway.

Good post, essence of problem summed up nicely. Won't wash with those who want someone with authority to blame, though.

It is a good post but doesn't get around the fact that, these vulnerable and challenging teens reported the abuse and it was swept under the carpet, I want the authorities to answer for that, not for it happening but for the fact that they made no effort to stop it and in fact in some cases I suspect cover it up.

Yes these teens are a challenge I don't think anyone disputes that, BUT this report doesn't focus on what happened to the teens perpetrated by the criminals that are now in jail but on how the authorities dealt with it and the massive failings.

Giving the girls support & guidance is key and as you say a challenge but dealing with the groomers (which wasn't done) sooner would make a massive difference.

[V8 Fettler]

CoolHands said:

I haven't read all this thread or the others like it - but I have had to work with some girls who are the vulnerable types involved in these incidents. Whilst I realise it is easy to criticise the 'authorities' I suggest some of you have no idea how difficult it is to get them to comply with what you want. Eg you cannot force them to attend school. You can't prevent them from walking out of school if you do get them there! You cannot prevent them from 'getting out' of their care homes in the evenings. They will disappear for 2 days at a time. They will abuse drink and drugs. They will go shoplifting. etc.

Most of them are damaged, and behave in very difficult ways. Blaming the people that try to look after them in their teenage years is rather dimwitted if you ask me. What we (as a society) should be asking is if we don't like what's happening what can we do to change the systems that are in place? It is rather complicated. Blaming the Head of social services that earns £2 million quid a year or whatever the Mail claims, doesn't really help. These teenagers are not locked up, and that wouldn't be a solution in itself anyway.

You appear to be saying that it's acceptable to pay lots of tax money (my tax money) to the authorities to prevent CSE arising, but then it's acceptable for the authorities to fail in their statutory duty and to fail to do the job they are paid to do (with my tax money).

Re; controlling children. Certainly make schools secure, no-one escapes from between 9 am and 4 pm (no-one gets in either). For care homes, curfew to apply.

[CoolHands]

V8 Fettler said:

Re; controlling children. Certainly make schools secure, no-one escapes from between 9 am and 4 pm (no-one gets in either).

But that's just not realistic. Don't know if you've been in a school recently but it's touch and go as to whether you can maintain a reasonable level of classroom discipline!

You require kids cooperation to function as an institution, and also if you think about it we need these pupils to integrate to normal society - if you consider their home lives have not been 'normal' by virtue of the fact they are in care, then at least having a normal experience at a normal school should be considered a good thing. If we sent them to a special school that was secure, then nothing in their lives would be normal! And would that be right...?

[CoolHands]

Foliage said:

It is a good post but doesn't get around the fact that, these vulnerable and challenging teens reported the abuse and it was swept under the carpet, I want the authorities to answer for that, not for it happening but for the fact that they made no effort to stop it and in fact in some cases I suspect cover it up.

Yes I think everyone would agree that if action was not taken when it should have been it needs to be dealt with. I'm not in social services or the police but I'll be honest - I'd be astonished if anyone did not follow procedure when it comes to a child reporting abuse, let alone covering it up. I can't see why one would do so.

[RobinOakapple]

Foliage said:

It is a good post but doesn't get around the fact that, these vulnerable and challenging teens reported the abuse and it was swept under the carpet, I want the authorities to answer for that, not for it happening but for the fact that they made no effort to stop it and in fact in some cases I suspect cover it up.

A few of them did, but I would like to know a lot more about the circumstances before I would blame 'the authorities' completely. Were the few that reported prepared to name their attackers, ID them? If not (as is unfortunately quite likely), what exactly would the police have been able to do?

[V8 Fettler]

CoolHands said:

V8 Fettler said:

Re; controlling children. Certainly make schools secure, no-one escapes from between 9 am and 4 pm (no-one gets in either).

But that's just not realistic. Don't know if you've been in a school recently but it's touch and go as to whether you can maintain a reasonable level of classroom discipline!

You require kids cooperation to function as an institution, and also if you think about it we need these pupils to integrate to normal society - if you consider their home lives have not been 'normal' by virtue of the fact they are in care, then at least having a normal experience at a normal school should be considered a good thing. If we sent them to a special school that was secure, then nothing in their lives would be normal! And would that be right...?

It is indeed a few years since I was at school, and it was relatively secure. Most of the teachers were certainly aware if a pupil was missing from a lesson. But this was a few years ago.

Should not all schools be secure between 0900hrs and 1600hrs?

[CoolHands]

'secure' as in yes you can stop strangers getting in. But no you can't stop kids from hopping over the fence and truanting! Only a secure facility could do so in other words a young offenders institution.

[MiniMan64]

V8 Fettler said:

CoolHands said:

V8 Fettler said:

Re; controlling children. Certainly make schools secure, no-one escapes from between 9 am and 4 pm (no-one gets in either).

But that's just not realistic. Don't know if you've been in a school recently but it's touch and go as to whether you can maintain a reasonable level of classroom discipline!

You require kids cooperation to function as an institution, and also if you think about it we need these pupils to integrate to normal society - if you consider their home lives have not been 'normal' by virtue of the fact they are in care, then at least having a normal experience at a normal school should be considered a good thing. If we sent them to a special school that was secure, then nothing in their lives would be normal! And would that be right...?

It is indeed a few years since I was at school, and it was relatively secure. Most of the teachers were certainly aware if a pupil was missing from a lesson. But this was a few years ago.

Should not all schools be secure between 0900hrs and 1600hrs?

Ours is.

Swipe cards in an out and fences. A few have tried to make a break for it but never mad it out.

[V8 Fettler]

RobinOakapple said:

Foliage said:

It is a good post but doesn't get around the fact that, these vulnerable and challenging teens reported the abuse and it was swept under the carpet, I want the authorities to answer for that, not for it happening but for the fact that they made no effort to stop it and in fact in some cases I suspect cover it up.

A few of them did, but I would like to know a lot more about the circumstances before I would blame 'the authorities' completely. Were the few that reported prepared to name their attackers, ID them? If not (as is unfortunately quite likely), what exactly would the police have been able to do?

Thornton reports victims making statements and then withdrawing statements due to fear of violence from the offenders.

Kingfisher was (and is) precisely what the authorities needed to do as a start point http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/bullfinch/11830993.Bui...

[V8 Fettler]

CoolHands said:

'secure' as in yes you can stop strangers getting in. But no you can't stop kids from hopping over the fence and truanting! Only a secure facility could do so in other words a young offenders institution.

Would have needed to have been a pole vaulter to get over the fence at my school!

[Mermaid]

eldar said:

johnxjsc1985 said:

the question then is this, " is the Police force no longer fit for purpose"?

A good question. The answer, I think is yes, they are fit for purpose, but less so as time passes. The problem is they are badly led, and that leadership is getting worse.

part of the race to the bottom. Sad. They need robust leadership, more funding, less politics.

[JuniorD]

It seems that Britain is endemic with nonceiness and a regime that is either complicit with it or incapable of dealing with it.

In wonder What the rest Europe is like in comparison. Do our neighbours see us a a shower of institutional degenerates, or don't they see this on their news reports?

[jogon]

JuniorD said:

It seems that Britain is endemic with nonceiness and a regime that is either complicit with it or incapable of dealing with it.

In wonder What the rest Europe is like in comparison. Do our neighbours see us a a shower of institutional degenerates, or don't they see this on their news reports?

Have you ever read the news from Sweden they are even more fked than we are.

[Mermaid]

jogon said:

JuniorD said:

It seems that Britain is endemic with nonceiness and a regime that is either complicit with it or incapable of dealing with it.

In wonder What the rest Europe is like in comparison. Do our neighbours see us a a shower of institutional degenerates, or don't they see this on their news reports?

Have you ever read the news from Sweden they are even more fked than we are.

common denominator?

[Esseesse]

CoolHands said:

'secure' as in yes you can stop strangers getting in. But no you can't stop kids from hopping over the fence and truanting! Only a secure facility could do so in other words a young offenders institution.

[RobinOakapple]

Esseesse said:

Point?

[Crush]

MiniMan64 said:

Ours is.

Swipe cards in an out and fences. A few have tried to make a break for it but never mad it out.

Stalag Luft III?