LHC back online in ten..nine......

LHC back online in ten..nine......

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Discussion

anonymous-user

Original Poster:

54 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
quotequote all
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-311627...
This sounds very interesting!
Seems like there is real anticipation of new discoveries that may well rock our world.

Einion Yrth

19,575 posts

244 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
quotequote all
Will be running at 13 TeV as opposed to the previous 8(ish) TeV(if it doesn't go bang).

Of course, and it's only my impression, but it's looking increasingly like the scientists are saying to each other "Clapton, but we need to come up with something new, all we've done so far is demonstrate the current model and at <cough>ty millions per run that's not going to cut it.

I wish them luck, but lack their, apparent, confidence.

anonymous-user

Original Poster:

54 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
quotequote all
Have faith!
These people have broken records, have made important discoveries and, I'm certain, will continue to do so.

SlipStream77

2,153 posts

191 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
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What useful information has been forthcoming from the LHC?

Watchman

6,391 posts

245 months

Friday 6th March 2015
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How is it funded and do those supplying the cash expect a return. If so, how?

It's fascinating stuff but considering the money sunk into it, I'd expect someone would want a return on their investment. The US govt presumably got something out of the space programme - even it was *just* the capability to launch satellites.

anonymous-user

Original Poster:

54 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
Isn't there value in knowledge?

The Higgs Boson took half a century to be found and LHC found it. If we want to know about how things are then we have to seek the answer. Is there a better way of trying to find these things than the LHC? As it is it may be that LHC teaches us how to build a machine that will detect, that it will be maintained, modified and upgraded until it finds more. Surely better than doing nothing?

kev1974

4,029 posts

129 months

Friday 6th March 2015
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£6.19bn to 2010 according to Wikipedia, can't find any recent cost figures.

Could have repaired the Houses of Parliament twice over for that biggrin

Moonhawk

10,730 posts

219 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
Watchman said:
How is it funded and do those supplying the cash expect a return. If so, how?

It's fascinating stuff but considering the money sunk into it, I'd expect someone would want a return on their investment. The US govt presumably got something out of the space programme - even it was *just* the capability to launch satellites.
We may not know what practical applications the information from the LHC may have for decades.

Take lasers as an example - Einstein first predicted their existence from his equations in 1917 - it took 11 years for somebody to confirm their existence experimentally - and many decades for real world applications to become commonplace.

What would the world be like now had somebody scrapped laser research a they couldn't think of an immediate application or that it wasn't going to give an immediate return?

Moonhawk

10,730 posts

219 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
kev1974 said:
£6.19bn to 2010 according to Wikipedia, can't find any recent cost figures.

Could have repaired the Houses of Parliament twice over for that biggrin
Or pay to show just over 3 years of premiership football on TV.

Edited by Moonhawk on Friday 6th March 09:47

skyrover

12,671 posts

204 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
So far the LHC has demonstrated that the standard model holds up very very well.

Unfortunately the standard model can only explain about 20% of the universe, not including gravity.

The standard model needs to be broken.

scorp

8,783 posts

229 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
Moonhawk said:
What would the world be like now had somebody scrapped laser research a they couldn't think of an immediate application or that it wasn't going to give an immediate return?
This is why some projects need public funding, otherwise most capitalists would never take the risk.


Digga

40,316 posts

283 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
SlipStream77 said:
What useful information has been forthcoming from the LHC?
You got a least two sensible answers to a question that barely merits acknowledgement. Now please stay out of the debate if you cannot keep up with the science.

Moonhawk

10,730 posts

219 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
Guam said:
Maybe they will release this data unlike the cloud chamber experiments that allegedly they are still sitting on the results of (unless someone knows different)?
Some of the data has already been released in the form of scientific research papers. Below are a couple of papers that have been released into the public domain for free. For the others you would have to subscribe to a journal (or be a member of a library that holds them).

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S...

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S...

Watchman

6,391 posts

245 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
Moonhawk said:
Watchman said:
How is it funded and do those supplying the cash expect a return. If so, how?

It's fascinating stuff but considering the money sunk into it, I'd expect someone would want a return on their investment. The US govt presumably got something out of the space programme - even it was *just* the capability to launch satellites.
We may not know what practical applications the information from the LHC may have for decades.

Take lasers as an example - Einstein first predicted their existence from his equations in 1917 - it took 11 years for somebody to confirm their existence experimentally - and many decades for real world applications to become commonplace.

What would the world be like now had somebody scrapped laser research a they couldn't think of an immediate application or that it wasn't going to give an immediate return?
I doubt the amount of money ploughed into laser development was as considerable as the 6bn that the LHC has swallowed to date - but regardless of that my question was about the organisations or people who have funded the LHC and whether they have done so with an application (and therefore, return) in mind, or whether they are just speculating with their investment on the off-chance that there will be something to yield. It's such a huge investment, and involved land across an international border. The only analogous investment I can think of is war or the 1960s space programme (US and USSR), both analogies involving "competition". There's no such competition for the LHC - probably the purest form of scientific collaboration since the ISS - and there must be some objective in mind to encourage the income.

SlipStream77

2,153 posts

191 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
Digga said:
SlipStream77 said:
What useful information has been forthcoming from the LHC?
You got a least two sensible answers to a question that barely merits acknowledgement. Now please stay out of the debate if you cannot keep up with the science.
I don't think you quite understand how a public forum works do you?

It was a valid question seeing as despite my having two science degrees, neither of them is in the field of particle physics.

Both of the answers to my query were informative and I've learned from them.

I suggest you put more effort into submitting posts that are actually useful, rather than making assumptions about people and attempting to be a mod.


Digga

40,316 posts

283 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
Watchman said:
The only analogous investment I can think of is war or the 1960s space programme (US and USSR), both analogies involving "competition". There's no such competition for the LHC - probably the purest form of scientific collaboration since the ISS - and there must be some objective in mind to encourage the income.
In layman's terms, this is like building a bigger space telescope. No one can really predict what may be discovered until it is done. It is research right at the envelope of human practical (but not necessarily theoretical) knowledge.


Edited by Digga on Friday 6th March 15:02

anonymous-user

Original Poster:

54 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
Moonhawk said:
Watchman said:
How is it funded and do those supplying the cash expect a return. If so, how?

It's fascinating stuff but considering the money sunk into it, I'd expect someone would want a return on their investment. The US govt presumably got something out of the space programme - even it was *just* the capability to launch satellites.
We may not know what practical applications the information from the LHC may have for decades.

Take lasers as an example - Einstein first predicted their existence from his equations in 1917 - it took 11 years for somebody to confirm their existence experimentally - and many decades for real world applications to become commonplace.

What would the world be like now had somebody scrapped laser research a they couldn't think of an immediate application or that it wasn't going to give an immediate return?
I doubt they would be missed, just like everything else that hasn't yet been discovered or developed.

I'm not saying I'm against them or any technological development, but surely that's the case?

As for the LHC, maybe slower development with a significantly lower budget might be more appropriate given the rather more pressing issues we have at the moment?

GadgeS3C

4,516 posts

164 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
SlipStream77 said:
Digga said:
SlipStream77 said:
What useful information has been forthcoming from the LHC?
You got a least two sensible answers to a question that barely merits acknowledgement. Now please stay out of the debate if you cannot keep up with the science.
I don't think you quite understand how a public forum works do you?

It was a valid question seeing as despite my having two science degrees, neither of them is in the field of particle physics.

Both of the answers to my query were informative and I've learned from them.

I suggest you put more effort into submitting posts that are actually useful, rather than making assumptions about people and attempting to be a mod.
I must admit I read your original question as rather negative. It could be read as a "oh why don't we spend the money on making kittens safer" question - which is the danger of forums. My apologies for making assumptions!

The cost compared to that of showing football does put it nicely into context.


Watchman

6,391 posts

245 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
Digga said:
Watchman said:
The only analogous investment I can think of is war or the 1960s space programme (US and USSR), both analogies involving "competition". There's no such competition for the LHC - probably the purest form of scientific collaboration since the ISS - and there must be some objective in mind to encourage the income.
In layman's terms, this is like building a bigger space telescope. No one can really predict what may be discovered until it is done. It is research right at the envelope of human [i]practical{/i] (but not necessarily theoretical) knowledge.
The bit you cut and pasted was context. My question was about who the investors are and whether they had invested because of a stated return, or whether they had just speculated on the outcome.

Moonhawk

10,730 posts

219 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
REALIST123 said:
As for the LHC, maybe slower development with a significantly lower budget might be more appropriate given the rather more pressing issues we have at the moment?
Why is cost always brought up in these discussions with people saying the money could be spent better elsewhere ( feeding the hungry, employing nurses etc). Not suggesting you are saying that - but still.

It is a drop in the ocean in the grand scheme. BT and Sky have just spent nearly as much to show footy for the next three years. A single US nimitz class aircraft carrier costs around half as much again - and the US have 10 of the beasts.

Yes there are pressing issues in the world - but at least experiments like this may lead us to a better place - rather the the money being wasted on frivolities like football etc.