Je Suis Billy Boy - Free Speech in the UK
Discussion
The singing is f
king toxic; I grew up near, and knew, Mark Scott and his siblings. I went to my first Gers game before I started school. It is unquestionable that the reduction in sectarian violence is a good thing, and that's partly due to banning orders and restrictions on some of the singing/chants that were traditionally an integral part of going to the footba'. For this reason, I can live with the legislation, even though I'm generally hesitant about restricting free speech.
Sectarianism in the West of Scotland is not dead, merely dozing: I noticed when I was last home that people still do the 'thing' when they meet new people where they ask what your surname is and where you went to school. It's easy enough to work out which side of the fence you were born on with those two simple questions. Are you one of us? Or are you one of them? Are you a 'Mc' or a 'Mac'? 'Stephen' or 'Steven'? St Ninian's or Williamwood? Glasgow Academy or St Als?
The thing is, however, that it's not solely about that; as xjsdriver's posts show, there are still plenty of fools who can find vindication in that fetid morass; 'they're worse than us' or some such crap.
The bottom line is that it's all just bloody horrid, and nobody should take any pride from any part of it; the fact that it's been necessary to legislate to mitigate the effects of ingrained bigotry is something that all Scots should find shameful.
Although I'm a reluctant supporter of the legislation, I do feel that, if we were serious about eradicating sectarianism in Scotland, we'd be better to start with the sectarian divisions in education instead of fixating on who sings what at the football; deal with the cause, rather than just the consequence.
king toxic; I grew up near, and knew, Mark Scott and his siblings. I went to my first Gers game before I started school. It is unquestionable that the reduction in sectarian violence is a good thing, and that's partly due to banning orders and restrictions on some of the singing/chants that were traditionally an integral part of going to the footba'. For this reason, I can live with the legislation, even though I'm generally hesitant about restricting free speech.Sectarianism in the West of Scotland is not dead, merely dozing: I noticed when I was last home that people still do the 'thing' when they meet new people where they ask what your surname is and where you went to school. It's easy enough to work out which side of the fence you were born on with those two simple questions. Are you one of us? Or are you one of them? Are you a 'Mc' or a 'Mac'? 'Stephen' or 'Steven'? St Ninian's or Williamwood? Glasgow Academy or St Als?
The thing is, however, that it's not solely about that; as xjsdriver's posts show, there are still plenty of fools who can find vindication in that fetid morass; 'they're worse than us' or some such crap.
The bottom line is that it's all just bloody horrid, and nobody should take any pride from any part of it; the fact that it's been necessary to legislate to mitigate the effects of ingrained bigotry is something that all Scots should find shameful.
Although I'm a reluctant supporter of the legislation, I do feel that, if we were serious about eradicating sectarianism in Scotland, we'd be better to start with the sectarian divisions in education instead of fixating on who sings what at the football; deal with the cause, rather than just the consequence.
McWigglebum4th said:
Where do we stop?
As it isn't very far from jailing people singing songs at a football match to jailing those that support unpopular political views
Thanks, glad of the opportunity. OK, I'll cover that (including WinstonWolf earlier). It's only an unfortunate choice of words if you truly think that 'weeding out and showing how to behave' has sinister Orwellian connotations - which of course it hasn't. That's the problem, connotations in different contexts. It could easily be seen as a careful gardener taking care of his patch with the very best of intentions - in fact how it was meant. As it isn't very far from jailing people singing songs at a football match to jailing those that support unpopular political views
The mind set of the reader has everything to do with the intent, as the chanter under discussion here knew full well. There, right there, is the offence. These subjects have a history of wrong conclusions being jumped to by overeager protagonists followed by heated arguments ending up in insults. How easy then to understand the escalation when deep rooted tribal prejudice grows unchecked in the real world, where your opposing sides are face to face rather than on keyboards. All it needs is goodwill, but often a deliberate misunderstanding is more attractive as a form of debate. Especially when peer pressure and gang instincts are factors.
Hugo a Gogo said:
interesting article
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/je-su...
about this case:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-3...
4 months jail for signing a song is ludicrous, however odious you find the words, and the fact that they are talking about jail for singing 'Rule Britannia' or even 'aggresively blessing yourself' is simply unbelievable
this could only ever be tolerated against football fans, after all everyone knows they are all sub-human
What positive benefit is there of singing those songs? Exactly how does it improve anybody's quality of life? As far as I can see it's offensive just for the sake of being offensive. It's terwattish behaviour that some people seem determined to dress up as free speech.http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/je-su...
about this case:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-3...
4 months jail for signing a song is ludicrous, however odious you find the words, and the fact that they are talking about jail for singing 'Rule Britannia' or even 'aggresively blessing yourself' is simply unbelievable
this could only ever be tolerated against football fans, after all everyone knows they are all sub-human
spitsfire said:
..... I do feel that, if we were serious about eradicating sectarianism in Scotland, we'd be better to start with the sectarian divisions in education instead of fixating on who sings what at the football; deal with the cause, rather than just the consequence.
This is totally spot on. I was "lucky" in that due to witnessing a nasty incident at a football match, at an early age, I realised just how wrong it was. I along with 5 other pals, found something else to do on a Saturday away from the city.... Hugo a Gogo said:
what benefit to the French cartoons?
what benefit to Clarkson's 'slope' gag?
would anyone suggest putting them in jail?
similar to the dhead who tweeted some crap digs about the Glasgow bin lorry - he was an offensive idiot, but jail?
If either Clarkson or the French cartoonists were involved in the amount of bigotry/hatred shown at "Old Firm" games then I think there would be a strong case for penalising them as well. One person making snide remarks is different to 30,000 people screaming obscenities IMOwhat benefit to Clarkson's 'slope' gag?
would anyone suggest putting them in jail?
similar to the d
head who tweeted some crap digs about the Glasgow bin lorry - he was an offensive idiot, but jail?It's 2015 - surely we've outgrown this?
Hugo a Gogo said:
what benefit to the French cartoons?
what benefit to Clarkson's 'slope' gag?
There is an element of humour in both of those (questionable as it may be to some) that is entirely missing from the Billy Boys song, which originated from sectarian gangs who set out to intimidate a part of the community on religious grounds. The lyrics are full of violence and explicit threat. Surely you can see that? what benefit to Clarkson's 'slope' gag?
Countdown said:
What positive benefit is there of singing those songs? Exactly how does it improve anybody's quality of life? As far as I can see it's offensive just for the sake of being offensive. It's terwattish behaviour that some people seem determined to dress up as free speech.
tttish behaviour it may be, but if that were grounds for a prison sentence then there wouldn't be a free man around.Countdown said:
If either Clarkson or the French cartoonists were involved in the amount of bigotry/hatred shown at "Old Firm" games then I think there would be a strong case for penalising them as well. One person making snide remarks is different to 30,000 people screaming obscenities IMO
It's 2015 - surely we've outgrown this?
Did he get sent to jail for hating someone, or for being a bigot? Or was he sent to jail as a representative of 30,000 others?It's 2015 - surely we've outgrown this?
Why just him?
Mojocvh said:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-...
^^^just to keep up with the old firm theme^^^.....but hey just you crack on Mr "Professionally Offended"
PS In fact I'm going to give you a piece of advice.
LOGOUT.
Then, whenever you read something that floats your boat [or boils your p##s] you have a moment to ponder, prior to logging in, that actually, it doesn't really matter what feel you need to say because in fact IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER.
gettit?
I'm not one of the professionally offended, as you so casually and off-handedly put it. I'm one of many who are sick to the back teeth of these knuckle dragging sectarian morons. To those outside Scotland it may be just a song, here in Scotland people have been murdered for just being a different brand of Christianity to their murderers. A line was drawn in the sand, it was understood by everyone apart from the scumbags who sing the song with pride. I am the last person who would normally condone such apparent breaches of free speech, but in this isolated instance it is just and right.^^^just to keep up with the old firm theme^^^.....but hey just you crack on Mr "Professionally Offended"
PS In fact I'm going to give you a piece of advice.
LOGOUT.
Then, whenever you read something that floats your boat [or boils your p##s] you have a moment to ponder, prior to logging in, that actually, it doesn't really matter what feel you need to say because in fact IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER.
gettit?
Edited by Mojocvh on Tuesday 17th March 03:53
McWigglebum4th said:
In jail for singing a song?
Then surely i should also be banged up for a considerable period of time for my anti scottish views
You are beneath contempt, you ARE a Rangers fan, so you cannot claim not to know that sectarianism is a subject that your club has battled with strenuously in modern times, doing its best to rid itself of fThen surely i should also be banged up for a considerable period of time for my anti scottish views
kwits that ruin the club's good name. You are a first class denier of an unpalatable truth. Moreover, you have now nailed your colours to the mast and cannot play the I'm not a bigot game anymore.Wrathalanche said:
Article said:
But the only ‘circumstances’ that matter are these: a football stadium is not real life. In that heated and, yes, fun moment of footballing rivalry, people shout and sing stuff they would never shout or sing in a Tesco’s on a Wednesday afternoon
I have my suspicions the author might not have actually spent that much time in Glasgow...This law is typical of the sort of nonsense the Scottish Parliament and SNP come up with because they can't do anything constructive. And yet some people wanted them to have more power...
Countdown said:
What positive benefit is there of singing those songs? Exactly how does it improve anybody's quality of life? As far as I can see it's offensive just for the sake of being offensive. It's terwattish behaviour that some people seem determined to dress up as free speech.
+1 Most folk on here don't have a clue about how decent people in Scotland, no matter what political, or religious persuasion, or ethnic background they happen to be from, feel about such matters. It is only the bigots that see no harm in "just a song". Everyone else thinks it's beneath contempt!!!!McWigglebum4th said:
Where do we stop?
As it isn't very far from jailing people singing songs at a football match to jailing those that support unpopular political views
You sir, are an utter, utter As it isn't very far from jailing people singing songs at a football match to jailing those that support unpopular political views
. You cannot claim this is simply a breach of freedom of speech and well you fking know it. If you don't know the reason for it being so unacceptable then I'd suggest that you must be autistic or have some form of sociopathic tendency. You would be the very first grown-up Rangers fan in its history not to know the significance of such a song. I wonder what your fellow-Rangers-fan mate Simoid has to say about this....... Simoid are you condoning his actions now?EDIT: actually I feel the need to apologise to utter, utter
s the world over for tarring you with the same brush as Wibbles. It was uncalled for, Wibbles has neither the depth, nor the warmth to be classed as a - he is beneath contempt and once again I ask you utter, utter s for your forgiveness.Edited by xjsdriver on Tuesday 17th March 21:04
technodup said:
r Manchester. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZH0yvvQN6U
This law is typical of the sort of nonsense the Scottish Parliament and SNP come up with because they can't do anything constructive. And yet some people wanted them to have more power...
Actually it has cross party support from ALL parties in Scotland. Sectarianisn is a fThis law is typical of the sort of nonsense the Scottish Parliament and SNP come up with because they can't do anything constructive. And yet some people wanted them to have more power...
kING cancer and it needed cut out. It is sad that it had to be done.......but its a simple fact IT HAD TO BE DONE!!!Bluebarge said:
There is an element of humour in both of those (questionable as it may be to some) that is entirely missing from the Billy Boys song, which originated from sectarian gangs who set out to intimidate a part of the community on religious grounds. The lyrics are full of violence and explicit threat. Surely you can see that?
I think the folk that just don't get it are naive at best, having no knowledge of the matter. Even decent Rangers fans are appalled by the actions of the small minority who sing such songs.xjsdriver said:
Actually it has cross party support from ALL parties in Scotland. Sectarianisn is a fkING cancer and it needed cut out. It is sad that it had to be done.......but its a simple fact IT HAD TO BE DONE!!!
Freedom of speech trumps your (or a Catholic/Protestant's) right to be offended.kING cancer and it needed cut out. It is sad that it had to be done.......but its a simple fact IT HAD TO BE DONE!!!We pride ourselves on freedom of speech yet still have laws like this.
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