Shocking footage - US Cops take down man...
Discussion
CTO said:
Loving the people forseeing the actions of the mentally unwell chap.
I could give a list of incidents that despite the best efforts of those involved couldn't be foreseen, this includes clinicians that know the person rather than random officers.
Obviously some of the PH warriors would have disarmed and de escalated the situation using only their extensive watch knowledge and directors credentials from Duedil....
Google Earl Butler enquiry (also by Francis of Stafford enquiry fame) or the death of DC Swindells in 2004. Things go wrong very quickly.
So your response when asked to attend would have been to stand that close to the door knowing what they did, then upon seeing a tiny screw driver held as it was draw a firearm and shout as loudly and unintelligibly as they did in a schizophrenics face transforming yourself immediately from a police officer into a lethal threat? I could give a list of incidents that despite the best efforts of those involved couldn't be foreseen, this includes clinicians that know the person rather than random officers.
Obviously some of the PH warriors would have disarmed and de escalated the situation using only their extensive watch knowledge and directors credentials from Duedil....
Google Earl Butler enquiry (also by Francis of Stafford enquiry fame) or the death of DC Swindells in 2004. Things go wrong very quickly.
If you would act in this manner then training standards are appallingly low and may God help us all
djc206 said:
He wasn't dangerous, he was potentially dangerous. He'd threatened not actually been violent, there's a big difference.
From the article: 'According to the officers, Jason Harrison made an aggressive or threatening move, reportedly lunging toward an officer prior to the shooting.'I think the police felt they were in danger. We can argue semantics 'til your trembling bottom lip falls off but the fact remains that armed officers saw his move as dangerous.
djc206 said:
He also wasn't acting aggressively with a deadly weapon (you have to be bloody accurate and bloody lucky to turn a 4 inch screwdriver into a deadly weapon) in the video.
I can assure you a screwdriver is a deadly weapon. I've had a couple pulled on me and felt very threatened.djc206 said:
His body language was very passive. He only lunged after he was threatened with an actual deadly weapon, a fight or flight instinct.
If it was the fight instinct then the officers were quite correct to shoot him, shirley? Often attackers will be calm and relaxed before launching themselves at you so actually his behaviour is quite atypical of an assault scenario.djc206 said:
He was a bloody great big guy with bipolar and schizophrenia I should imagine the police would be a sensible first port of call rather than a paramedic just in case he did get violent.
Not the police's job.djc206 said:
I'm not disputing the guys capability to inflict injury I'm disputing the assumption that he was intending to inflict injury,
Makes no difference.djc206 said:
I don't believe he was and as such I see his death as the consequence of an overreaction and I hope that should similar ever happen here that the officer be removed from duty and be handed over to a jury of his peers for judgment. They might judge him as you have, I feel safe believing that in the UK where reason usually prevails that they would judge as I have.
Reason did prevail: Police reasoned they were in danger and shot him.djc206 said:
So your response when asked to attend would have been to stand that close to the door knowing what they did, then upon seeing a tiny screw driver held as it was draw a firearm and shout as loudly and unintelligibly as they did in a schizophrenics face transforming yourself immediately from a police officer into a lethal threat?
If you would act in this manner then training standards are appallingly low and may God help us all
Because I clearly said that that's how I would react? Where did you read that?If you would act in this manner then training standards are appallingly low and may God help us all
What I said was its difficult to forsee what was coming. Initially he presented as a passive albeit reportedly unwell man. Probably why they got closer than they should have and as the situation changed then so did the officers perceived risk level.
You should maybe have a look at the matrix for reasonable force and bear in mind it's a dynamic situation.
Which training standards are you alleging to be appallingly low?
djc206 said:
Your feeling threatened by it does not make it deadly.
He lunged after they made threats. They were the aggressors not him. Why is this so difficult to understand.
Your argument is a screwdriver is not a deadly weapon...? You feel confident that a sharpened metal spike cannot be deadly? It's just that I can't help thinking the Yorkshire ripper might have disagreed.He lunged after they made threats. They were the aggressors not him. Why is this so difficult to understand.
djc206 said:
Your feeling threatened by it does not make it deadly.
He lunged after they made threats. They were the aggressors not him. Why is this so difficult to understand.
You don't understand it because you're unwilling to accept that your opinion might be wrong, because you don't realise you approach the topic from a skewed perspective. He lunged after they made threats. They were the aggressors not him. Why is this so difficult to understand.
CTO said:
Because I clearly said that that's how I would react? Where did you read that?
What I said was its difficult to forsee what was coming. Initially he presented as a passive albeit reportedly unwell man. Probably why they got closer than they should have and as the situation changed then so did the officers perceived risk level.
You should maybe have a look at the matrix for reasonable force and bear in mind it's a dynamic situation.
Which training standards are you alleging to be appallingly low?
I posed a question based on your defence of their actions, I made no assumptionsWhat I said was its difficult to forsee what was coming. Initially he presented as a passive albeit reportedly unwell man. Probably why they got closer than they should have and as the situation changed then so did the officers perceived risk level.
You should maybe have a look at the matrix for reasonable force and bear in mind it's a dynamic situation.
Which training standards are you alleging to be appallingly low?
They knew his history, they failed to act accordingly.
In my opinion any officer who agrees with the actions of the officers in the video should reexamine how they would approach such a situation when presented with the ample intelligence available and prior experience of the man in the video. Clearly these officers didn't consider how to deal with someone with his mental illnesses, their training was either lacklustre or they were sloppy, either way a man is dead.
My standpoint isn't going to get me anywhere on here, I know that. I know that many here think that once a police officer has asked you to do something failure to comply gives him Carte Blanche, apparently in Texas that's the case. But it shouldn't be the case. That man didn't need to die, the homeless man a couple of weeks ago didn't need to die. The countless dozens before them...
I'm not anti police or a bleeding heart liberal. My father is a retired police officer, my grandfather was a police officer. I'm actually probably centre right in my politics but I vehemently oppose the militarisation of policing as per the U.S. The quickest way to a lawless society is through police brutality, when you can't trust the law to be enforced in a reasoned manner and by the consent of the populous you're on a hiding to nothing.
Munter said:
Your argument is a screwdriver is not a deadly weapon...? You feel confident that a sharpened metal spike cannot be deadly? It's just that I can't help thinking the Yorkshire ripper might have disagreed.
Here's the definition of a deadly weapon for you: A deadly weapon is usually defined as a firearm or any object designed, made, or adapted for the purposes of inflicting death or serious physical injury.Last time I checked screw drivers were for driving screws. Yes they can be used as weapons but they are not deadly weapons in themselves.
popeyewhite said:
You don't understand it because you're unwilling to accept that your opinion might be wrong, because you don't realise you approach the topic from a skewed perspective.
That's the beauty of opinions. I consider yours to be skewed, but which of us is right or are we both wrong?djc206 said:
Munter said:
Your argument is a screwdriver is not a deadly weapon...? You feel confident that a sharpened metal spike cannot be deadly? It's just that I can't help thinking the Yorkshire ripper might have disagreed.
Here's the definition of a deadly weapon for you: A deadly weapon is usually defined as a firearm or any object designed, made, or adapted for the purposes of inflicting death or serious physical injury.Last time I checked screw drivers were for driving screws. Yes they can be used as weapons but they are not deadly weapons in themselves.
Nice try but wrong. A car can be a deadly weapon. As can a rock, a bottle, in fact anything that is used in an assault can be classed as a deadly weapon.One of about a billion links on the subject:
http://esfandilawfirm.com/crimes/ca-penal-code-245...
many available webpages said:
The second element of the crime can be difficult for the prosecution to prove. Deadly weapon are traditionally viewed to be guns and knives, but you can be convicted of CA Penal Code 245 for using something like a beer bottle, a rock, car, pen, really anything that can be used to inflict great bodily injury onto another person.
I'm on the fence on this, in theory he was a threat and a screwdriver could actually kill but from the moment they draw the guns to the moment he is shot is VERY quick. Problem is when every officer is armed you will always get those who act differently, had it been 2 other officers on duty they might have stepped back and given it more time.
Another situation where you could argue it could of been handled differently
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b65_1423681940
Another situation where you could argue it could of been handled differently
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b65_1423681940
djc206 said:
Here's the definition of a deadly weapon for you: A deadly weapon is usually defined as a firearm or any object designed, made, or adapted for the purposes of inflicting death or serious physical injury.
Last time I checked screw drivers were for driving screws. Yes they can be used as weapons but they are not deadly weapons in themselves.
No you couldn't kill anyone with a screwdriver now could you! What a silly statement. Last time I checked screw drivers were for driving screws. Yes they can be used as weapons but they are not deadly weapons in themselves.
I wonder what you view is on a 4lb lump hammer? It doesn't get much blunter than that but would prove deadly if it hit you on the head.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff