Shocking footage - US Cops take down man...

[djc206]

Munter said:

djc206 said:

Munter said:

Your argument is a screwdriver is not a deadly weapon...? You feel confident that a sharpened metal spike cannot be deadly? It's just that I can't help thinking the Yorkshire ripper might have disagreed.

Here's the definition of a deadly weapon for you: A deadly weapon is usually defined as a firearm or any object designed, made, or adapted for the purposes of inflicting death or serious physical injury.

Last time I checked screw drivers were for driving screws. Yes they can be used as weapons but they are not deadly weapons in themselves.

Nice try but wrong. A car can be a deadly weapon. As can a rock, a bottle, in fact anything that is used in an assault can be classed as a deadly weapon.

One of about a billion links on the subject:
http://esfandilawfirm.com/crimes/ca-penal-code-245...

many available webpages said:

The second element of the crime can be difficult for the prosecution to prove. Deadly weapon are traditionally viewed to be guns and knives, but you can be convicted of CA Penal Code 245 for using something like a beer bottle, a rock, car, pen, really anything that can be used to inflict great bodily injury onto another person.

You've either not read your own link correctly or not understood it.

A beer bottle is in itself not a deadly weapon, it becomes a deadly weapon when you attack someone with it hence assault with a deadly weapon. A screw driver is not a deadly weapon because it's not designed to maim or kill, it only becomes a deadly weapon when it is deployed in a manner intended to maim or kill.

[djc206]

Grumfutock said:

No you couldn't kill anyone with a screwdriver now could you! What a silly statement.

I wonder what you view is on a 4lb lump hammer? It doesn't get much blunter than that but would prove deadly if it hit you on the head.

Where did I say that? I said it's not a deadly weapon in itself, meaning it is a screw driver it drives screws, is it possible to employ it to kill? absolutely, you could kill a man with a tea spoon if you were so inclined but it's certainly not a deadly weapon.

The point being a deadly weapon is either a) designed to be deadly or b) an ordinary object that is employed to be deadly, only through this employment does it become deadly. As such merely clutching a screwdriver without making a threat or possessing intent to harm does not put you in possession of a deadly weapon. Simple

[Munter]

djc206 said:

A screw driver is not a deadly weapon because it's not designed to maim or kill, it only becomes a deadly weapon when it is deployed in a manner intended to maim or kill.

So you agree, a screwdriver is one of many items that can be a "deadly weapon".
He had a screwdriver.
He may have chosen to use it as a deadly weapon (a court has to decide but it looks that way to me).
And if he did, the police response was valid.

[DoubleSix]

I don't know if its been covered already in the last 8 pages but I think it's important to recognise one of the best Robocop impressions I've heard in recent times..

"Drop it!"

As for all the "passive body language" rubbish on page one well, some of the most brutal assaults start that way, wise the fk up kids!

[Driller]

Another murder by police here (NOT GRAPHIC). Police helmet cam. Homeless camper.

Absolutely disgraceful.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4c1_1395708403

As far as the mentally ill man with the screwdriver goes, as soon as you saw him with that you would start to withdraw wouldn"t you? Not stand your ground and then just bllast him.

I think they call it "Protected and Served to death".

Edited by Driller on Wednesday 18th March 18:31

Edited by Driller on Wednesday 18th March 18:32

[Driller]

Another murder by police here (NOT GRAPHIC). Police helmet cam. Homeless camper.

Absolutely disgraceful.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4c1_1395708403

As far as the mentally ill man with the screwdriver goes, as soon as you saw him with that you would start to withdraw wouldn"t you? Not stand your ground and then just bllast him.

I think they call it "Protected and Served to death".

Edited by Driller on Wednesday 18th March 18:35

[djc206]

Munter said:

So you agree, a screwdriver is one of many items that can be a "deadly weapon".
He had a screwdriver.
He may have chosen to use it as a deadly weapon (a court has to decide but it looks that way to me).
And if he did, the police response was valid.

Anything pointy or heavy can be a deadly weapon but it is not automatically so. He may have chosen to yes, he may not. Would those officers have shot him if he were holding a coffee mug? A beer bottle? A length of wood? A pen? All have the potential be deadly weapons but they are not such until employed in a threat of violence or an act of violence. He made no such threat until threatened. He was a sick man, he didn't do what any sane person would do, it cost him his life, it didnt need to.

[Driller]

Another murder by police here (NOT GRAPHIC). Police helmet cam. Homeless camper.

Absolutely disgraceful.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4c1_1395708403

As far as the mentally ill man with the screwdriver goes, as soon as you saw him with that you would start to withdraw wouldn"t you? Not stand your ground and then just bllast him.

I think they call it "Protected and Served to death".

ETA WTF is going on with these posts...

Edited by Driller on Wednesday 18th March 18:36

[Wills2]

irocfan said:

http://www.policeone.com/use-of-force/articles/809...

And that's what happens when everyone has a gun or could potentially have one.

[popeyewhite]

djc206 said:

popeyewhite said:

You don't understand it because you're unwilling to accept that your opinion might be wrong, because you don't realise you approach the topic from a skewed perspective.

That's the beauty of opinions. I consider yours to be skewed, but which of us is right or are we both wrong?

No, I said your perspective was skewed and was influencing your opinion. I absolutely know I'm right, and the officers did the correct thing. Perhaps if you're really not confident in your opinion it might be an idea to be more open minded to the other side of the argument.

[Grumfutock]

djc206 said:

Grumfutock said:

No you couldn't kill anyone with a screwdriver now could you! What a silly statement.

I wonder what you view is on a 4lb lump hammer? It doesn't get much blunter than that but would prove deadly if it hit you on the head.

Where did I say that? I said it's not a deadly weapon in itself, meaning it is a screw driver it drives screws, is it possible to employ it to kill? absolutely, you could kill a man with a tea spoon if you were so inclined but it's certainly not a deadly weapon.

The point being a deadly weapon is either a) designed to be deadly or b) an ordinary object that is employed to be deadly, only through this employment does it become deadly. As such merely clutching a screwdriver without making a threat or possessing intent to harm does not put you in possession of a deadly weapon. Simple

If somebody threatened me with one and I was armed, would I put the gun away and trust to my stab vest whilst I wrestled with him? Hell no!

Any other answer belongs in a make believe world.

[Grumfutock]

djc206 said:

Anything pointy or heavy can be a deadly weapon but it is not automatically so. He may have chosen to yes, he may not. Would those officers have shot him if he were holding a coffee mug? A beer bottle? A length of wood? A pen? All have the potential be deadly weapons but they are not such until employed in a threat of violence or an act of violence. He made no such threat until threatened. He was a sick man, he didn't do what any sane person would do, it cost him his life, it didnt need to.

Threatened? I think the policeman said "drop that for me son". Hardly threatening!

[anonymous-user]

There's no doubt serious harm could be done with a screwdriver (serious harm can be done without any weapons). The point is, were there any reasonable opportunities, either through preparation and planning, or in response to have attempted to use a less lethal option?

I'd would say there would have certainly have been.

[djc206]

popeyewhite said:

No, I said your perspective was skewed and was influencing your opinion. I absolutely know I'm right, and the officers did the correct thing. Perhaps if you're really not confident in your opinion it might be an idea to be more open minded to the other side of the argument.

How is my perspective skewed?

Correct thing or right thing? Correct how?

They killed a man, there's very little that can justify the taking of another mans life. I don't see that their actions were justified or necessary and as such I don't see that they were right to take that mans life. Whether the law in Texas says they can or can't is neither here nor there, they were wrong to do so.

One should always be open to the idea that ones opinion is wrong no matter how strongly you believe. No one is right all of the time, to believe that there is no way you could be wrong is called arrogance.

[anonymous-user]

A failure to recognise there's an incomplete picture in which to make clear judgements is more concerning.

[popeyewhite]

djc206 said:

How is my perspective skewed?

Already done that.

djc206 said:

Correct thing or right thing? Correct how?

They killed a man, there's very little that can justify the taking of another mans life.

Being attacked by a madman with a screwdriver is justification.

djc206 said:

One should always be open to the idea that ones opinion is wrong no matter how strongly you believe. No one is right all of the time, to believe that there is no way you could be wrong is called arrogance.

I'm happy that at least you admit you could be wrong. I'll let you off the arrogance charge as you appear, well...unsure of yourself.

[djc206]

Grumfutock said:

If somebody threatened me with one and I was armed, would I put the gun away and trust to my stab vest whilst I wrestled with him? Hell no!

Any other answer belongs in a make believe world.

Jesus wept.

You are the cop for arguments sake. You have been called to deal with a known bipolar schizophrenic, someone who needs gentle handling.

You have not been threatened with a screw driver. A man does have a screw driver but he hasn't threatened you with it. You are armed. You immediately draw your weapon point it at him and start shouting at him. You are the aggressor. He reacts as you would expect a mentally ill person faced with three people screaming at him, two of whom are armed and pointing guns at him. Bang bang, dead.

You are armed, he is at best lightly armed if you like. You could back off and calmly ask him to drop his weapon whilst covering yours in case you need it, nope you just drawn down and scream at him. Piss poor.

[skyrover]

djc206 said:

Jesus wept.

You are the cop for arguments sake. You have been called to deal with a known bipolar schizophrenic, someone who needs gentle handling.

You have not been threatened with a screw driver. A man does have a screw driver but he hasn't threatened you with it. You are armed. You immediately draw your weapon point it at him and start shouting at him. You are the aggressor. He reacts as you would expect a mentally ill person faced with three people screaming at him, two of whom are armed and pointing guns at him. Bang bang, dead.

You are armed, he is at best lightly armed if you like. You could back off and calmly ask him to drop his weapon whilst covering yours in case you need it, nope you just drawn down and scream at him. Piss poor.

Meanwhile why you try to think of the most "humane" way to deal with this individual, he has stabbed you through the neck

[djc206]

Grumfutock said:

Threatened? I think the policeman said "drop that for me son". Hardly threatening!

He pointed a gun at him how much more threatening do you want? You guys can't have it both ways, in your world a screwdriver being twiddled between both hands is a deadly weapon but a semi automatic weapon pointed at a mans heart is a casual conversation.

[CTO]

CTO said:

djc206 said:

So your response when asked to attend would have been to stand that close to the door knowing what they did, then upon seeing a tiny screw driver held as it was draw a firearm and shout as loudly and unintelligibly as they did in a schizophrenics face transforming yourself immediately from a police officer into a lethal threat?

If you would act in this manner then training standards are appallingly low and may God help us all

Which training standards are you alleging to be appallingly low?

I can't see where you have answered this, apologies if you have and I missed it.