Shocking footage - US Cops take down man...
Discussion
popeyewhite said:
djc206 said:
How is my perspective skewed?
Already done that.djc206 said:
Correct thing or right thing? Correct how?
They killed a man, there's very little that can justify the taking of another mans life.
Being attacked by a madman with a screwdriver is justification.They killed a man, there's very little that can justify the taking of another mans life.
djc206 said:
One should always be open to the idea that ones opinion is wrong no matter how strongly you believe. No one is right all of the time, to believe that there is no way you could be wrong is called arrogance.
I'm happy that at least you admit you could be wrong. I'll let you off the arrogance charge as you appear, well...unsure of yourself.I disagree in this case based on what I watched.
I'm not, I'm sure but I'm also a human and imperfect
djc206 said:
Grumfutock said:
Threatened? I think the policeman said "drop that for me son". Hardly threatening!
He pointed a gun at him how much more threatening do you want? You guys can't have it both ways, in your world a screwdriver being twiddled between both hands is a deadly weapon but a semi automatic weapon pointed at a mans heart is a casual conversation.CTO said:
I can't see where you have answered this, apologies if you have and I missed it.
I don't recall if I answered it directly as I've had quite a lot to answer to! Wishing I'd kept my views on this to myself, would have saved me from RSI in my index finger.I do I believe answered it by explaining how I believe mental health issues where known should be taken into account in such situations and that a rapid escalation and raised voices when faced with someone of the disposition of a bipolar schizophrenic is just asking for trouble. The only outcome at the point weapons were drawn and the shouting started was what we saw in the video and was a direct consequence of failure to appreciate the inevitability of behaving in such a way towards such a person. It was all very predictable and avoidable in my book. Hindsight is a wonderful thing I hear you say but we are all trained in our jobs to do things to the point they become second nature, clearly handling these sorts of people is not second nature ergo the training is inadequate.
Police training should involve lessons on diffusing situations especially where the mentally ill are concerned and be taught how and what actions are likely to result in escalation
Edited by djc206 on Wednesday 18th March 19:42
Grumfutock said:
Have you watched the video? Seriously?
Yes a few timesWe both think we're right (obviously) and this is going round in circles so I'm going to leave it here. I've said my piece, I wish I hadn't for the reason that it's taken up far too much time. I respectfully disagree with a lot of what has been posted but enoughs enough. I'm off for a beer.
May the guy rest in peace
Edited by djc206 on Wednesday 18th March 19:48
Murder. I hope the cops go to trial.
For me it's about proportionality. Threaten me with a gun - I am justified in defending myself with a gun. Threaten me with a screwdriver - a nightstick / truncheon is more than sufficient.
Something I have noticed with US cops - they get very close indeed to their suspect before fully assessing the situation, which leaves less reaction time if the suspect does something unexpected. Less reaction time = more likelihood of going for my gun, instead of taking a split second to assess the risk and decide on an appropriate response.
In this case I have the say the cops look intellectually challenged - the man is lying on the ground, presumably dying, and their main concern is that he still has his screwdriver ?? WTF are these people on? (see the longer version on the vid for this..) They also banter that he is still alive, but make absolutely no effort to administer first aid. One even starts to try to handcuff the body before realising he is looking a bit stupid.
For me it's about proportionality. Threaten me with a gun - I am justified in defending myself with a gun. Threaten me with a screwdriver - a nightstick / truncheon is more than sufficient.
Something I have noticed with US cops - they get very close indeed to their suspect before fully assessing the situation, which leaves less reaction time if the suspect does something unexpected. Less reaction time = more likelihood of going for my gun, instead of taking a split second to assess the risk and decide on an appropriate response.
In this case I have the say the cops look intellectually challenged - the man is lying on the ground, presumably dying, and their main concern is that he still has his screwdriver ?? WTF are these people on? (see the longer version on the vid for this..) They also banter that he is still alive, but make absolutely no effort to administer first aid. One even starts to try to handcuff the body before realising he is looking a bit stupid.
djc206 said:
CTO said:
I can't see where you have answered this, apologies if you have and I missed it.
I don't recall if I answered it directly as I've had quite a lot to answer to! Wishing I'd kept my views on this to myself, would have saved me from RSI in my index finger.I do I believe answered it by explaining how I believe mental health issues where known should be taken into account in such situations and that a rapid escalation and raised voices when faced with someone of the disposition of a bipolar schizophrenic is just asking for trouble. The only outcome at the point weapons were drawn and the shouting started was what we saw in the video and was a direct consequence of failure to appreciate the inevitability of behaving in such a way towards such a person. It was all very predictable and avoidable in my book. Hindsight is a wonderful thing I hear you say but we are all trained in our jobs to do things to the point they become second nature, clearly handling these sorts of people is not second nature ergo the training is inadequate.
Police training should involve lessons on diffusing situations especially where the mentally ill are concerned and be taught how and what actions are likely to result in escalation. Clearly these officers either weren't trained very well in dealing with these people or disregarded their training defaulting to their point gun and shout fast then shoot when the perp moves training.
I am however qualified as a healthcare professional, experienced in working in low secure, forensic and community psychiatry. I have experience of things going wrong, subsequent inquests and serious untoward incident reviews. I have today attended yet more training on risk management and reasonable force (which is why I pointed you towards the matrix). I work closely with the people who have mental health difficulties,their families and advocates. I also work with the police, the M.O.J, the courts, solicitors and families of those who have mental health issues when it DOES all go a bit awry.
I don't wish to be disrespectful but your answers seem to be lacking in either experience or reality.
Apologies if I am wrong.
Disclaimer: If I am wrong then FWIW my father was also a police officer. We can hug it out
Ayahuasca said:
Murder. I hope the cops go to trial.
For me it's about proportionality. Threaten me with a gun - I am justified in defending myself with a gun. Threaten me with a screwdriver - a nightstick / truncheon is more than sufficient.
Something I have noticed with US cops - they get very close indeed to their suspect before fully assessing the situation, which leaves less reaction time if the suspect does something unexpected. Less reaction time = more likelihood of going for my gun, instead of taking a split second to assess the risk and decide on an appropriate response.
In this case I have the say the cops look intellectually challenged - the man is lying on the ground, presumably dying, and their main concern is that he still has his screwdriver ?? WTF are these people on? (see the longer version on the vid for this..) They also banter that he is still alive, but make absolutely no effort to administer first aid. One even starts to try to handcuff the body before realising he is looking a bit stupid.
All because you are judging it by our UK standards. In the USA if a copper tells you to stop, you stop!For me it's about proportionality. Threaten me with a gun - I am justified in defending myself with a gun. Threaten me with a screwdriver - a nightstick / truncheon is more than sufficient.
Something I have noticed with US cops - they get very close indeed to their suspect before fully assessing the situation, which leaves less reaction time if the suspect does something unexpected. Less reaction time = more likelihood of going for my gun, instead of taking a split second to assess the risk and decide on an appropriate response.
In this case I have the say the cops look intellectually challenged - the man is lying on the ground, presumably dying, and their main concern is that he still has his screwdriver ?? WTF are these people on? (see the longer version on the vid for this..) They also banter that he is still alive, but make absolutely no effort to administer first aid. One even starts to try to handcuff the body before realising he is looking a bit stupid.
djc206 said:
Grumfutock said:
Have you watched the video? Seriously?
Yes a few timesWe both think we're right (obviously) and this is going round in circles so I'm going to leave it here. I've said my piece, I wish I hadn't for the reason that it's taken up far too much time. I respectfully disagree with a lot of what has been posted but enoughs enough. I'm off for a beer.
May the guy rest in peace
Edited by djc206 on Wednesday 18th March 19:48
Enjoy the beer.
La Liga said:
Esseesse said:
Wills2 said:
I'm so glad our police force aren't routinely armed.
Unfortunately we're moving that way.Grumfutock said:
Ayahuasca said:
Murder. I hope the cops go to trial.
For me it's about proportionality. Threaten me with a gun - I am justified in defending myself with a gun. Threaten me with a screwdriver - a nightstick / truncheon is more than sufficient.
Something I have noticed with US cops - they get very close indeed to their suspect before fully assessing the situation, which leaves less reaction time if the suspect does something unexpected. Less reaction time = more likelihood of going for my gun, instead of taking a split second to assess the risk and decide on an appropriate response.
In this case I have the say the cops look intellectually challenged - the man is lying on the ground, presumably dying, and their main concern is that he still has his screwdriver ?? WTF are these people on? (see the longer version on the vid for this..) They also banter that he is still alive, but make absolutely no effort to administer first aid. One even starts to try to handcuff the body before realising he is looking a bit stupid.
All because you are judging it by our UK standards. In the USA if a copper tells you to stop, you stop!For me it's about proportionality. Threaten me with a gun - I am justified in defending myself with a gun. Threaten me with a screwdriver - a nightstick / truncheon is more than sufficient.
Something I have noticed with US cops - they get very close indeed to their suspect before fully assessing the situation, which leaves less reaction time if the suspect does something unexpected. Less reaction time = more likelihood of going for my gun, instead of taking a split second to assess the risk and decide on an appropriate response.
In this case I have the say the cops look intellectually challenged - the man is lying on the ground, presumably dying, and their main concern is that he still has his screwdriver ?? WTF are these people on? (see the longer version on the vid for this..) They also banter that he is still alive, but make absolutely no effort to administer first aid. One even starts to try to handcuff the body before realising he is looking a bit stupid.
Info on Texas police' guidelines on using deadly force:
http://www.policeone.com/training/articles/72870-T...
CTO said:
See, I read that and it appeared to be a lot of back pedalling as you tried to distance yourself from your assumption that I was a police officer.
I am however qualified as a healthcare professional, experienced in working in low secure, forensic and community psychiatry. I have experience of things going wrong, subsequent inquests and serious untoward incident reviews. I have today attended yet more training on risk management and reasonable force (which is why I pointed you towards the matrix). I work closely with the people who have mental health difficulties,their families and advocates. I also work with the police, the M.O.J, the courts, solicitors and families of those who have mental health issues when it DOES all go a bit awry.
I don't wish to be disrespectful but your answers seem to be lacking in either experience or reality.
Apologies if I am wrong.
Disclaimer: If I am wrong then FWIW my father was also a police officer. We can hug it out
In all honesty I did assume you were a police officer and in all honesty it was a bit of back pedalling away from directing my comment at you to making a more general one. Busted.I am however qualified as a healthcare professional, experienced in working in low secure, forensic and community psychiatry. I have experience of things going wrong, subsequent inquests and serious untoward incident reviews. I have today attended yet more training on risk management and reasonable force (which is why I pointed you towards the matrix). I work closely with the people who have mental health difficulties,their families and advocates. I also work with the police, the M.O.J, the courts, solicitors and families of those who have mental health issues when it DOES all go a bit awry.
I don't wish to be disrespectful but your answers seem to be lacking in either experience or reality.
Apologies if I am wrong.
Disclaimer: If I am wrong then FWIW my father was also a police officer. We can hug it out
I have limited direct experience with mental health issues you are correct as is readily apparent I'm sure. But in my defence time and time again we see (especially in the US) failure to treat the mentally ill sensitively and end up seeing incidents like this. That to me stinks of improper training.
My opinions on the matter have been made clear, you are undoubtedly the best person in the thread to refute any of my inferences and statements regarding failure by the officers to adapt their approach to deal with this mans issues.
I still believe he didn't need to be shot, I still believe they were wrong and I still need that beer
I thnk he must have done something aggressive as the female rushed back in distress a good few seconds prior to the shots
If I was in that position, and a large male, who could easily overpower me answered the door with a screwdriver and lunged at me I would certainly gone for my gun rather than anything else. In such close proximity there isn't time to start messing around baton twirling
If I was in that position, and a large male, who could easily overpower me answered the door with a screwdriver and lunged at me I would certainly gone for my gun rather than anything else. In such close proximity there isn't time to start messing around baton twirling
djc206 said:
CTO said:
See, I read that and it appeared to be a lot of back pedalling as you tried to distance yourself from your assumption that I was a police officer.
I am however qualified as a healthcare professional, experienced in working in low secure, forensic and community psychiatry. I have experience of things going wrong, subsequent inquests and serious untoward incident reviews. I have today attended yet more training on risk management and reasonable force (which is why I pointed you towards the matrix). I work closely with the people who have mental health difficulties,their families and advocates. I also work with the police, the M.O.J, the courts, solicitors and families of those who have mental health issues when it DOES all go a bit awry.
I don't wish to be disrespectful but your answers seem to be lacking in either experience or reality.
Apologies if I am wrong.
Disclaimer: If I am wrong then FWIW my father was also a police officer. We can hug it out
In all honesty I did assume you were a police officer and in all honesty it was a bit of back pedalling away from directing my comment at you to making a more general one. Busted.I am however qualified as a healthcare professional, experienced in working in low secure, forensic and community psychiatry. I have experience of things going wrong, subsequent inquests and serious untoward incident reviews. I have today attended yet more training on risk management and reasonable force (which is why I pointed you towards the matrix). I work closely with the people who have mental health difficulties,their families and advocates. I also work with the police, the M.O.J, the courts, solicitors and families of those who have mental health issues when it DOES all go a bit awry.
I don't wish to be disrespectful but your answers seem to be lacking in either experience or reality.
Apologies if I am wrong.
Disclaimer: If I am wrong then FWIW my father was also a police officer. We can hug it out
I have limited direct experience with mental health issues you are correct as is readily apparent I'm sure. But in my defence time and time again we see (especially in the US) failure to treat the mentally ill sensitively and end up seeing incidents like this. That to me stinks of improper training.
My opinions on the matter have been made clear, you are undoubtedly the best person in the thread to refute any of my inferences and statements regarding failure by the officers to adapt their approach to deal with this mans issues.
I still believe he didn't need to be shot, I still believe they were wrong and I still need that beer
The police do now have training and are part of street triage teams in the UK. I recently convened a street meeting of police, approved Doctors and a social worker to section 3 one of my patients.
The police aren't social workers although they are called upon time and again to perform the role,with increasingly fewer resources.
Fair play to a decent reply though.
to a discussion on PH that hasn't descended into abuse and insult hurling.The UK police deal with lots of metal health incidents and people with mental heath issues (without shooting them, either). It's a vastly expanding area of demand, most of which are medical issues the NHS can't manage so get passed to the police.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 18th March 20:26
Defcon5 said:
In such close proximity there isn't time to start messing around baton twirling
Granted, so should they have been in such close proximity? It does seem to limit their options.A .357 Magnum revolver (Texas police standard issue, apparently) is just as lethal from slightly further away, but slightly further away gives more reaction time.
La Liga said:
The UK police deal with lots of metal health incidents and people with mental heath issues (without shooting them, either). It's a vastly expanding area I'd demand, most of which are medical issues the NHS can't manage so get passed to the police.
Which medical issues do the police deal with that the NHS can't manage?There is much asked from you in terms of executing warrants, iffy 136 requests and the like and I can understand the police's frustrations at this.
La Liga said:
The UK police deal with lots of metal health incidents and people with mental heath issues (without shooting them, either). It's a vastly expanding area of demand, most of which are medical issues the NHS can't manage so get passed to the police.
La Liga, are you a police officer? If so I would be interesting to hear your views on how that situation would have been/is handled over here? Edited by La Liga on Wednesday 18th March 20:26
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