Germanwings A320 crashed in France :(
Discussion
FrankAbagnale said:
Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. It was a question to this suggesting anyone with a history of depression shouldn't ever be allowed to pilot a plane.
Yes I got the implication, but i answered the question you asked. I'm not suggesting they shouldn't be allowed to fly a plane, i'm talking about commercial aircraft.danjama said:
Take this as evidence, quoted from PPRUNE:
"I have been following this thread as a non-pilot and although I have no experience whatsoever on a/c mechanics, I felt like I had to react on the FOs MH postulation.
I can understand the disbelief towards a person taking others with him in a suicide scenario. However, as a person who has suffered a severe clinical depression at one point in his life I can definitely tell you that this causes you such amounts of struggle and pain that your only thought is to make it stop, completely clouding your vision on the effects this might have on others.
Another problem that might occur with such a severe depression are psychotic features/episodes, which might not be the same as full blown psychosis and a complete loss of reality, but can significantly skew your view on reality although you still seem to function normally on the outside.
Furthermore, I had no real problems in my life so its almost impossible to tell the cause of the hypothetical depression if he never outed this to a second party, so I would suggest stopping the speculation on that part.
While I have never experienced the urge to take anyone with me even in my heaviest thoughts, I'm trying to tell you that its totally possible for a non-psychopath to perform such an act, when he has lost the power to fight his depression which I believe could be sudden. Saying "everyone has felt down at one point" is completely rubbish compared to a severe clinical depression which can still make you act normal to others.
This does not in any case mean I'm trying to talk the blame of him may the suicide scenario be true. A depression does not appear in an instant and he should have been struggling longer and should have seeked help, whatever consequences that may have had for his career. Now 149 others do not have a future anymore."
Would you want a person who would fall in to the above description, to be in charge of a commercial jet carrying your family?
No, I wouldn't want someone who is currently suffering from sever depression to be in the cockpit of a plane I am a passenger on."I have been following this thread as a non-pilot and although I have no experience whatsoever on a/c mechanics, I felt like I had to react on the FOs MH postulation.
I can understand the disbelief towards a person taking others with him in a suicide scenario. However, as a person who has suffered a severe clinical depression at one point in his life I can definitely tell you that this causes you such amounts of struggle and pain that your only thought is to make it stop, completely clouding your vision on the effects this might have on others.
Another problem that might occur with such a severe depression are psychotic features/episodes, which might not be the same as full blown psychosis and a complete loss of reality, but can significantly skew your view on reality although you still seem to function normally on the outside.
Furthermore, I had no real problems in my life so its almost impossible to tell the cause of the hypothetical depression if he never outed this to a second party, so I would suggest stopping the speculation on that part.
While I have never experienced the urge to take anyone with me even in my heaviest thoughts, I'm trying to tell you that its totally possible for a non-psychopath to perform such an act, when he has lost the power to fight his depression which I believe could be sudden. Saying "everyone has felt down at one point" is completely rubbish compared to a severe clinical depression which can still make you act normal to others.
This does not in any case mean I'm trying to talk the blame of him may the suicide scenario be true. A depression does not appear in an instant and he should have been struggling longer and should have seeked help, whatever consequences that may have had for his career. Now 149 others do not have a future anymore."
Would you want a person who would fall in to the above description, to be in charge of a commercial jet carrying your family?
danjama said:
Yes I got the implication, but i answered the question you asked. I'm not suggesting they shouldn't be allowed to fly a plane, i'm talking about commercial aircraft.
So it is fine for them to kill a handful of people then, just not 150 or more? This from the man saying we don't value human life enough?FrankAbagnale said:
No, I wouldn't want someone who is currently suffering from sever depression to be in the cockpit of a plane I am a passenger on.
Well depression can lurk and come back at any time. As implied:"when he has lost the power to fight his depression which I believe could be sudden."
danjama said:
See this is exactly what I am contesting. With a job with such importance and responsibility as piloting a commercial jet, there should be nobody recruited with any kind of history! There's just no need for it IMO.
I'm not saying it would be possible to achieve this in the current world climate, but it's my opinion. Take that FWIW.
The reason for my standpoint - there are gastro illnesses which can result vitamin deficiencies, which can then cause bouts of depression.I'm not saying it would be possible to achieve this in the current world climate, but it's my opinion. Take that FWIW.
So it is entirely possible for depression to be caused by physical illness rather then be inherent in someone's mental state or personality. It is also completely possible in these cases for this depression to be a fleeting thing.
I would be more than happy for anyone who has been through such circumstances to pilot me, drive me or even circumcise me!
And as someone else has rightly point out, depression is shades of grey, ranging from suicidal to "I'm not quite so happy today".
FrankAbagnale said:
Just to clarify, how depressed does a person have to be/have been to never fly a plane again?
From personal experience, it depends how outrageous the last annual bill was, or how expensive it is to fix when your co-owner spreads parts of the airframe over the runway at Elvington.Seriously: the usual reactionary 'tards on this thread demanding immediate mental health checks on flight crew are....the usual reactionary 'tards, exploring hitherto-unexplored dimension of the reactionary 'tardiverse.
danjama said:
Yes I got the implication, but i answered the question you asked. I'm not suggesting they shouldn't be allowed to fly a plane, i'm talking about commercial aircraft.
Right... Hypothetically, How depressed does someone have to be or have been before they should be deemed unfit to ever fly a commercial aircraft?
Hopefully that's suitably phrased.
mattmurdock said:
So it is fine for them to kill a handful of people then, just not 150 or more? This from the man saying we don't value human life enough?
They wouldn't have the sick motivation of taking out 150+ people and being all over the news for a start!! Nevermind what other twisted motives that may be at work.danjama said:
Well depression can lurk and come back at any time. As implied:
"when he has lost the power to fight his depression which I believe could be sudden."
Depression can not only lurk and return at any time, but it can also appear for the first time, at any time."when he has lost the power to fight his depression which I believe could be sudden."
That statement also says to me he was currently depressed, hence lost the fight.
FrankAbagnale said:
Right...
Hypothetically, How depressed does someone have to be or have been before they should be deemed unfit to ever fly a commercial aircraft?
Hopefully that's suitably phrased.
Well, in my unqualified opinion, and I have always enforced that this is JUST my opinion, there should be no history of depression considered reasonable. To me that's just logical.Hypothetically, How depressed does someone have to be or have been before they should be deemed unfit to ever fly a commercial aircraft?
Hopefully that's suitably phrased.
However, in the event such a rule came about, it would probably be set up by people with valuable knowledge in this field.
Edited by danjama on Thursday 26th March 23:36
eharding said:
From personal experience, it depends how outrageous the last annual bill was, or how expensive it is to fix when your co-owner spreads parts of the airframe over the runway at Elvington.
Seriously: the usual reactionary 'tards on this thread demanding immediate mental health checks on flight crew are....the usual reactionary 'tards, exploring hitherto-unexplored dimension of the reactionary 'tardiverse.
I woudln't consider myself one of the usual reactionary 'tards. I rarely post in NPE (although a daily reader) but aviation issues are important to me.Seriously: the usual reactionary 'tards on this thread demanding immediate mental health checks on flight crew are....the usual reactionary 'tards, exploring hitherto-unexplored dimension of the reactionary 'tardiverse.
eharding said:
FrankAbagnale said:
Just to clarify, how depressed does a person have to be/have been to never fly a plane again?
From personal experience, it depends how outrageous the last annual bill was, or how expensive it is to fix when your co-owner spreads parts of the airframe over the runway at Elvington.Seriously: the usual reactionary 'tards on this thread demanding immediate mental health checks on flight crew are....the usual reactionary 'tards, exploring hitherto-unexplored dimension of the reactionary 'tardiverse.
Not the usual reactionary "tard".
But hyperbole is a great strategy, works well - crack on!
danjama said:
Well, i'm my unqualified opinion, and I have always enforced that this is JUST my opinion, there should be no history of depression considered reasonable. To me that's just logical.
However, in the event such a rule came about, it would probably be set up by people with valuable knowledge in this field.
When I was 16, I had a girlfriend called Samantha. She was a beauty - I was punching, really punching. However, in the event such a rule came about, it would probably be set up by people with valuable knowledge in this field.
I bought Samantha a Britney Spears album for some reason and over the coming weeks things went downhill. Samantha dumped me soon after. I was inconsolable. I mean, sitting in my room for weeks listening to Damien rice on repeat inconsolable. My mum suggested I go to the doctor and I remember him telling me I was a little depressed.
Now, Samantha turned out to be average at best. 5/10. To think that I'd given up my chances of becoming a commercial airline pilot 13 years later because of her would really piss me off.
danjama said:
Fair point. In this situation you can only wonder how it was missed during screening/interviews etc as there are ways of probing.
I think my point is that it is just as likely that someone will get depression for the first time as it is I will become depressed again tomorrow. Depression isn't easily defined or understood and a blanket can't be thrown over it - and that makes it very hard to limit a persons career choices based on their past.I would think very regular psychological testing etc would be a fairer way of assessing current mental state and ability to fly a commercial airliner.
FrankAbagnale said:
When I was 16, I had a girlfriend called Samantha. She was a beauty - I was punching, really punching.
I bought Samantha a Britney Spears album for some reason and over the coming weeks things went downhill. Samantha dumped me soon after. I was inconsolable. I mean, sitting in my room for weeks listening to Damien rice on repeat inconsolable. My mum suggested I go to the doctor and I remember him telling me I was a little depressed.
Now, Samantha turned out to be average at best. 5/10. To think that I'd given up my chances of becoming a commercial airline pilot 13 years later because of her would really piss me off.
Luckily according to your username you are only a pretend pilot who goes around forging cheques, so no danger in causing any harm from the jump seat thanks to Samantha, I bought Samantha a Britney Spears album for some reason and over the coming weeks things went downhill. Samantha dumped me soon after. I was inconsolable. I mean, sitting in my room for weeks listening to Damien rice on repeat inconsolable. My mum suggested I go to the doctor and I remember him telling me I was a little depressed.
Now, Samantha turned out to be average at best. 5/10. To think that I'd given up my chances of becoming a commercial airline pilot 13 years later because of her would really piss me off.
cardigankid said:
This ought to be the end of the PC society. But it won't be.
This guy showed signs of mental instability yet in today's forgiving understanding second chance employee's rights environment, of course they should be allowed to return to employment. There is far too little understanding of mental illness. No?
It is very very disappointing, to put it mildly, that German Wings should entrust an aircraft to a person with this record. At some times in the past they would have had him put away. Germans aren't what they used to be. Nowadays he is tolerated.
They deserve to go bust. They are not suitable people to be trusted with transporting human beings. What other dingbats have they got flying civil planes? Nowadays it's ok to be a disturbed tosser in Germany, because of 'the past' . Fly KLM. They are professionals.
There is a big difference between suffering from depression and the having the Psychotic episode that seems to have taken place here. Do you label all people that suffer from depression as "disturbed tossers". And that they all should be "put away" as you so succinctly put it. This guy showed signs of mental instability yet in today's forgiving understanding second chance employee's rights environment, of course they should be allowed to return to employment. There is far too little understanding of mental illness. No?
It is very very disappointing, to put it mildly, that German Wings should entrust an aircraft to a person with this record. At some times in the past they would have had him put away. Germans aren't what they used to be. Nowadays he is tolerated.
They deserve to go bust. They are not suitable people to be trusted with transporting human beings. What other dingbats have they got flying civil planes? Nowadays it's ok to be a disturbed tosser in Germany, because of 'the past' . Fly KLM. They are professionals.
Edited by cardigankid on Thursday 26th March 21:52
FrankAbagnale said:
When I was 16, I had a girlfriend called Samantha. She was a beauty - I was punching, really punching.
I bought Samantha a Britney Spears album for some reason and over the coming weeks things went downhill. Samantha dumped me soon after. I was inconsolable. I mean, sitting in my room for weeks listening to Damien rice on repeat inconsolable. My mum suggested I go to the doctor and I remember him telling me I was a little depressed.
Now, Samantha turned out to be average at best. 5/10. To think that I'd given up my chances of becoming a commercial airline pilot 13 years later because of her would really piss me off.
Would this episode even be registered on a persons medical history?I bought Samantha a Britney Spears album for some reason and over the coming weeks things went downhill. Samantha dumped me soon after. I was inconsolable. I mean, sitting in my room for weeks listening to Damien rice on repeat inconsolable. My mum suggested I go to the doctor and I remember him telling me I was a little depressed.
Now, Samantha turned out to be average at best. 5/10. To think that I'd given up my chances of becoming a commercial airline pilot 13 years later because of her would really piss me off.
I do completely see your point, and you've conveyed it in a way we can all relate to. But there are obviously different categories/stages of depression that i'm not well versed in, and there should be a level of depression that should mean 'No entry to the profession of piloting a commercial jet'.
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