Germanwings A320 crashed in France :(
Discussion
Asterix said:
Good question and reply. I was going to ask the same.
One other; can the pilot dump all the fuel so even if an automated safety protocol kicked in, it would be pointless?
You could dump the fuel, although it takes ages and someone would notice.One other; can the pilot dump all the fuel so even if an automated safety protocol kicked in, it would be pointless?
When looking at any computer system in the current context, you could disable pretty much any protection by pulling circuit breakers, required in case said equipment malfunctions or catches fire. This action seems to have happened on MH370 to some extent.
More broadly, you only need look through a list of recent human-led accidents to see how to crash a plane. You could do something like not deploy flaps during takeoff ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanair_Flight_5022 ) for example.
The whole thing is designed around sometimes incompetent but always benevolent human authority. It's designed to avoid known accident patterns, not guard against intelligent malice.
Obviously it raises the question of whether full automation would be better. My uninformed layman's perspective is that it can't necessarily be achieved yet - autonomous UAVs still crash into the sea because they can't tell the difference between it and the sky, FFS - and even if it could, you still have a big section of accidents or would-be accidents that were primarily systems failures rather than pilot errors.
Landing on the Hudson is the best example, but also stuff like this Qantas accident where root cause analysis & appropriate action meant the humans saved the day, whereas a computer would probably have s
t the bed. It's societal too, so we'll ultimately accept various plane crashes in which hundreds of people die each time due to pilot mistakes, but it's a lot harder to accept a single one where 'the robot did it', in emotional and legal terms to say the least.Stevanos said:
Challo said:
No changes to flight doors, locks would have prevented it. Statistics show that this is very few and fair between compared to the number of flights taken per day.
A locking system/protocol that allows the most senior officer on the aircraft back on to the flight deck would have prevented it happening in all likelihood. egor110 said:
Sky News stating severe depression and mental health not Islam.Stevanos said:
Challo said:
No changes to flight doors, locks would have prevented it. Statistics show that this is very few and fair between compared to the number of flights taken per day.
A locking system/protocol that allows the most senior officer on the aircraft back on to the flight deck would have prevented it happening in all likelihood. Or because you've weakened the post-9/11 protections, a third party attacker compromises this system - what is it, a code? A physical token? Both obtainable - and gets access where they would have previously been locked out, and so hijacks the plane.
No. Way. Out.
Challo said:
Stevanos said:
Challo said:
No changes to flight doors, locks would have prevented it. Statistics show that this is very few and fair between compared to the number of flights taken per day.
A locking system/protocol that allows the most senior officer on the aircraft back on to the flight deck would have prevented it happening in all likelihood. The flaw in the above plan comes in when it is the most senior officer suffering with depression and suicidal thoughts...
Challo said:
egor110 said:
Sky News stating severe depression and mental health not Islam.t now. Get with the program.After all, they're so reputable their clickbait link has killed their server
Oakey said:
Challo said:
egor110 said:
Sky News stating severe depression and mental health not Islam.t now. Get with the program.After all, they're so reputable their clickbait link has killed their server
You have any evidence it's not true? no thought not so everything is speculation.
If you look at how the military deal with problems like this it's about checks and balances and layers of trust.
In both drone operation centres and ICBM launch sites there is invariably a senior trusted officer with a pistol ready to put an end to any subordinate's attempts to go postal.
A simple solution is the US Air Marshal system. A security cleared trusted individual not known to the crew or passengers, trained to fly the aircraft with a key to the cockpit door.
In the event if a hijacking, the terrorists would be unaware he had the key (most likely the pin code override) and would be trained not to be compromised in that situation, but could at least gain access to the cockpit give him a non lethal tazer.
Of course the airlines won't want to swallow the cost but look at how much they already charge us as security charge excesses. 2 quid on every leg would cover a 300 quid daily rate on even a short haul flight, surely enough to pay for some well-trained mentally checked ex special forces type. It is no different than putting security people in hotels etc so really given the potential for nutters on planes and value of the asset a security guy would solce a lot of problems as long as he isn't Liam Neeson suffering a drink problem and bring blackmailed over his missing daughter.
In both drone operation centres and ICBM launch sites there is invariably a senior trusted officer with a pistol ready to put an end to any subordinate's attempts to go postal.
A simple solution is the US Air Marshal system. A security cleared trusted individual not known to the crew or passengers, trained to fly the aircraft with a key to the cockpit door.
In the event if a hijacking, the terrorists would be unaware he had the key (most likely the pin code override) and would be trained not to be compromised in that situation, but could at least gain access to the cockpit give him a non lethal tazer.
Of course the airlines won't want to swallow the cost but look at how much they already charge us as security charge excesses. 2 quid on every leg would cover a 300 quid daily rate on even a short haul flight, surely enough to pay for some well-trained mentally checked ex special forces type. It is no different than putting security people in hotels etc so really given the potential for nutters on planes and value of the asset a security guy would solce a lot of problems as long as he isn't Liam Neeson suffering a drink problem and bring blackmailed over his missing daughter.
Where's the cat with tinfoil hat pic? 
I think all this airport security BS, scanning etc, is there primarily to put THE FEAR into us all
We all know the risks of doing various things, not just transport but for example I know every time I ride my (push) bike it's fairly hideous odds for me getting ttted by some innattentive driver. A riding friend was recently nearly killed, but I still carry on riding, for fun & fitness.
I think I'd rather take the (tiny) risk of some terrorist or nutter on a plane and retain my right to carry an admittedly highly dangerous 150ml of liquid with me onto a plane thanks.
I think all this airport security BS, scanning etc, is there primarily to put THE FEAR into us all
We all know the risks of doing various things, not just transport but for example I know every time I ride my (push) bike it's fairly hideous odds for me getting t
tted by some innattentive driver. A riding friend was recently nearly killed, but I still carry on riding, for fun & fitness.I think I'd rather take the (tiny) risk of some terrorist or nutter on a plane and retain my right to carry an admittedly highly dangerous 150ml of liquid with me onto a plane thanks.
A simpler retrofit would be to install a second security door between the cabin and the forward toilet. The cockpit door is then interlocked and only opened after a visual check of the space between the doors. Add a movement sensor for the toilet space. The second door stays open unless a crew member wants to leave the cockpit.
egor110 said:
Working fine a minute ago.
You have any evidence it's not true? no thought not so everything is speculation.
I don't have evidence that it isn't true you like to wear womens underwear either, what's your point?You have any evidence it's not true? no thought not so everything is speculation.
I'm amazed that a grown adult with the capacity to think for yourself would look at a questionable website linking to a right wing Anti-Islamic blog and conclude "seems legit".
I know, we could weld up all the doors and windows into/out of the plane richardxjr said:
Where's the cat with tinfoil hat pic?
I think all this airport security BS, scanning etc, is there primarily to put THE FEAR into us all
We all know the risks of doing various things, not just transport but for example I know every time I ride my (push) bike it's fairly hideous odds for me getting ttted by some innattentive driver. A riding friend was recently nearly killed, but I still carry on riding, for fun & fitness.
I think I'd rather take the (tiny) risk of some terrorist or nutter on a plane and retain my right to carry an admittedly highly dangerous 150ml of liquid with me onto a plane thanks.
I think that was a scam introduced about the same time most airlines introduced a paid drinks service to get you to pay 5 quid for 25ml of coke.I think all this airport security BS, scanning etc, is there primarily to put THE FEAR into us all
We all know the risks of doing various things, not just transport but for example I know every time I ride my (push) bike it's fairly hideous odds for me getting t
tted by some innattentive driver. A riding friend was recently nearly killed, but I still carry on riding, for fun & fitness.I think I'd rather take the (tiny) risk of some terrorist or nutter on a plane and retain my right to carry an admittedly highly dangerous 150ml of liquid with me onto a plane thanks.
I watched a documentary on the PETN or whatever formula was supposedly behind the liquid bomb plot, they had an ex SF IED expert try and recreate the circumstances, all he managed to do was a Richard Reed and explode a coke can in nadgers. It barely scorched the cabin blind. They concluded the whole Fox news scenario of a downed plane would require something the size of a daisycutter's worth, which wouldn't fit in your hand luggage. And this was supposedly based on samples seized in Afghanistan. To get anything concentrate enough would require a military grade laboratory, and the stuff is both unstable and stinks so bad a german shepherd with the flu would detect it before you got off the Heathrow express.
Oakey said:
I don't have evidence that it isn't true you like to wear womens underwear either, what's your point?
I'm amazed that a grown adult with the capacity to think for yourself would look at a questionable website linking to a right wing Anti-Islamic blog and conclude "seems legit".
At least nobody has blamed Jimmy Saville or the BBC yet, so maybe PH is making some forward progress.I'm amazed that a grown adult with the capacity to think for yourself would look at a questionable website linking to a right wing Anti-Islamic blog and conclude "seems legit".
Mave said:
Stevanos said:
A locking system/protocol that allows the most senior officer on the aircraft back on to the flight deck would have prevented it happening in all likelihood.
It may have prevented this exact scenario, but there must be alternative scenarios it wouldn't prevent.http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-03-27/...
Oakey said:
Challo said:
egor110 said:
Sky News stating severe depression and mental health not Islam.t now. Get with the program.After all, they're so reputable their clickbait link has killed their server
nyxster said:
I mean 650 hours! That wouldn't even earn you a seat on the Manchester to Belfast Avro Twin prop.
I was flying on Fokker 50 twin props aged 23 and with less than 600 hours. I had colleagues who were doing the same aircraft and aged 21, and who by 23 were on B737s. Just sayin' like. Latest is the pilot had loads of ripped up sicknotes and should have been off work - he kept it from GW.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3013743/Ge...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3013743/Ge...
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