Germanwings A320 crashed in France :(
Discussion
grand cherokee said:
nyxster said:
grand cherokee said:
you make massively incorrect assumptions of special forces operators
do you know any special operators or are you talking from internet 'tattle'?
yes, there have been suicides, but they are purely personal - no killing sprees or flying planes into a mountain
You find in that post where i suggested SF operators went postal or flew planes into mountains. You need to work on your reading comprehension skills.do you know any special operators or are you talking from internet 'tattle'?
yes, there have been suicides, but they are purely personal - no killing sprees or flying planes into a mountain
I was holding up SF guys as the zenith of mental resilience, it doesn't matter if they are SAS or SEALs, the bar is set so high that it requires a level of psychological discipline and self-determination so high the vast majority of candidates get nowhere near the grade. And yet even these guys suffer from psychological, nervous and mental health issues sufficient to take their own lives. This was to refute an earlier point that anyone prone to depression isn't fit to do XYZ job. If tier one's are capable of breaking then expecting civvies to be immune is a non-starter.
As it happens I have interviewed many SF guys from different generations and their families as part of my work with length discussions regarding mental health issues and relationship stresses caused by the job. But even 1 hour spent watching an interview with John McAleese will give you the human reality of life as an operator rather than the Call of Duty fanboy version.
In every single case where they had lost former friends and colleagues to suicide there were little outward signs that anything was wrong, and the individuals concerned were outwardly normal with no signs of issues.
At no point did i suggest they were prone to going postal. The only point i was making was these are guys who go through extensive psychological testing, are capable of enduring incredible mental stress and yet still vulnerable to suffering from life-ending depression, drink problems or suffer nervous breakdowns, and it is only recent pressure that has been applied on the MOD that mental health is an important issue not to be brushed under the carpet.
Having a good friend who still suffers the nightmares of cleaning up after suicides in the service i do have some perspective on how this affects people.
you have a friend cleaning up - bet you have never taken hostile fire - the AK 47/54 round about to kill you?
end of story
Edited by grand cherokee on Friday 27th March 14:18
Can't think of a way round the secure door problem, so they need to fit a Big Red Button, both inside and outside the flight deck (with suitable protective cover!), anyone hits that, the thing just autopilots itself to the nearest designated appropriate-instrument-equipped runway, and lands, come what may. Yeah there's a chance it might still crash but a chance of crashing is better than definitely crashing, if someone goes loco at the controls, or terrorists seize the thing.
Although one idea does occur, couldn't there just be some sort of physical key (could be an electronic card of some sort) that the one going to the toilet takes with him in his pocket when he goes to the loo, if that isn't present inside the cockpit then the logic makes it impossible to lock out the cabin door. A bit like my Mazda had keyless entry, if the key was detected somewhere IN the car then I was unable to lock myself out, this would work the other way around, if the fob was NOT detected inside the cockpit then don't allow the door to be fully locked.
Although one idea does occur, couldn't there just be some sort of physical key (could be an electronic card of some sort) that the one going to the toilet takes with him in his pocket when he goes to the loo, if that isn't present inside the cockpit then the logic makes it impossible to lock out the cabin door. A bit like my Mazda had keyless entry, if the key was detected somewhere IN the car then I was unable to lock myself out, this would work the other way around, if the fob was NOT detected inside the cockpit then don't allow the door to be fully locked.
Steffan said:
I would emphasize that I am not seeking to be in anyway racist in this suggestion. It just seems totaly crazy to me that every form of air travel requires every passenger to be examined in detail when in many countries there are no terrorists harboured.
So you'd wave anyone with a British passport through, for example?I take the point that perhaps you treat someone with a Somalian passport as a different level of threat than you perhaps would a British passport, but there will always be holes, exceptions, gaps to exploit if you are intent on doing so, and the first time John Smith from Luton brings down an airliner you're back where you started.
Steffan said:
I would emphasize that I am not seeking to be in anyway racist in this suggestion. It just seems totaly crazy to me that every form of air travel requires every passenger to be examined in detail when in many countries there are no terrorists harboured.
Every country has terrorists amidst their populations, including the UK. Therefore going by your previous comments about stopping all scheduled flights to countries that harbour terrorists, the UK should also conform and stop all scheduled flights from Heathrow, Gatwick, Manchester and every other airport in the UK.Edited by Silver993tt on Friday 27th March 16:40
Timmy40 said:
LucreLout said:
BrabusMog said:
What a sweeping statement 
Sorry, but if it kicks off I'd rather rely on Chuck Norris than Nigel from accounts.
Timmy40 said:
Yes, but on any business class flight there's bound to be at least one powerfully build PH company director. He'll sort them out.
Not without his trusty hammer, sausages, piss, or red bull he won't. Not unless he can vbrj the plane into a safe landing.I've always had the idea that most of the ph director set are just IT contractors hiding from tax.
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said:Steffan said:
I would emphasize that I am not seeking to be in anyway racist in this suggestion. It just seems totaly crazy to me that every form of air travel requires every passenger to be examined in detail when in many countries there are no terrorists harboured.
So you'd wave anyone with a British passport through, for example?I take the point that perhaps you treat someone with a Somalian passport as a different level of threat than you perhaps would a British passport, but there will always be holes, exceptions, gaps to exploit if you are intent on doing so, and the first time John Smith from Luton brings down an airliner you're back where you started.
Steffan said:
I would suggest that they only way to address this problem is to identify the specific groups who are committing such acts and ensure that all the would be travellers from the countries where such acts are emanating cannot get access to any scheduled flight? Seems a much simpler approach to me. Give the countries who harbour terrorists the problem. I do think this is a much better approach because the consequences to the population of those countries would soon bring a realisation that harbouring terrorists must make life very very difficult for them, personally?
What do others think?
I remember someone from El Al security being interviewed post-911 and he said something along the lines of Western Airlines focus all efforts on looking for the bomb whereas we look for the bomber....made me think. What do others think?
I would not be surprised if El Al have more than one sky marshal in all flights, perhaps space for one on the flight deck.?
Edited by arguti on Friday 27th March 15:12
arguti said:
Steffan said:
I would suggest that they only way to address this problem is to identify the specific groups who are committing such acts and ensure that all the would be travellers from the countries where such acts are emanating cannot get access to any sceduled flight? Seems a much simpler approach to me. Give the countries who harbour terrorists the problem. I do think this is a much better approach because the consequences to the population of those coiuntues would soon bring a realisation that hariuring terroiriusts mskies life very very difficult for them, personally?
What do others think?
I remember someone from El Al security being interviewed post-911 and he said something along the lines of Western Airlines focus all efforts on looking for the bomb whereas we look for the bomber....made me think. What do others think?
But this is largely irrelevant in the context of this thread.
arguti said:
I remember someone from El Al security being interviewed post-911 and he said something along the lines of Western Airlines focus all efforts on looking for the bomb whereas we look for the bomber....made me think.
There was a fascinating documentary about this.An example was given, we screen all baggage looking for a bomb as you say, El Al look for a bald guy with a hair dryer in his baggage.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:arguti said:
I remember someone from El Al security being interviewed post-911 and he said something along the lines of Western Airlines focus all efforts on looking for the bomb whereas we look for the bomber....made me think.
There was a fascinating documentary about this.An example was given, we screen all baggage looking for a bomb as you say, El Al look for a bald guy with a hair dryer in his baggage.
grand cherokee said:
sorry, but you have never been in the zone!
you have a friend cleaning up - bet you have never taken hostile fire - the AK 47/54 round about to kill you?
end of story
An Astra GTE backfired while i was filling in a chit for teabags once. That syou have a friend cleaning up - bet you have never taken hostile fire - the AK 47/54 round about to kill you?
end of story
Edited by grand cherokee on Friday 27th March 14:18
t me right up, i can tell you.Wasn't in the zone though so no medals were forthcoming.
Interesting post on PPrune:
PPrune said:
I've been following this thread for a couple of days, but I haven't yet seen this particular argument (individual bits collated from numerous sources including the French BFMTV Live Feed):
1. Andreas Lubitz was a very intense young man. One of his friends from years ago said that "he would have died if he had failed to become a pilot". He clearly set himself very important goals which could not be missed or changed.
2. He was a perfectionist. This and 1. above are well-known causative factors in depression.
3. His severe depression led to a lengthy period off work. Lufthansa of course knew about this depression: this in itself would have been very difficult for him to accept.
3. His colleagues mocked him for having been a flight attendant for a period.
4. He wanted very much to go long-haul but was not accepted.
5. High intensity short-haul, for someone with Lubitz's make up. would soon become tedious, stressful and unsatisfying (as it did for me, and others I know). He could at this stage be thinking: "I sacrificed all of those years and efforts for this?" (as I regret to say I did).
6. Criticism from training captains would have been very difficult for him. Much more than for an easy going FO.
7. Any or all of the above could have led him to see a lapse back into severe depression as a fate worse than death. See 1. again.
There is a possibility than very driven highly perfectionist young men are not the ideal candidates for this career. I have flown with FOs like this, and it's not much fun, and doesn't make for a good flight deck environment . They often have a rigid view of what is correct and what is not, and rarely relax, which is contagious.
Some airlines put sociability at the top of the list of desired qualities when hiring. I'm guessing here, but perhaps LH doesn't?
If any of this turns out to be true, I wasn't far off in my theory.1. Andreas Lubitz was a very intense young man. One of his friends from years ago said that "he would have died if he had failed to become a pilot". He clearly set himself very important goals which could not be missed or changed.
2. He was a perfectionist. This and 1. above are well-known causative factors in depression.
3. His severe depression led to a lengthy period off work. Lufthansa of course knew about this depression: this in itself would have been very difficult for him to accept.
3. His colleagues mocked him for having been a flight attendant for a period.
4. He wanted very much to go long-haul but was not accepted.
5. High intensity short-haul, for someone with Lubitz's make up. would soon become tedious, stressful and unsatisfying (as it did for me, and others I know). He could at this stage be thinking: "I sacrificed all of those years and efforts for this?" (as I regret to say I did).
6. Criticism from training captains would have been very difficult for him. Much more than for an easy going FO.
7. Any or all of the above could have led him to see a lapse back into severe depression as a fate worse than death. See 1. again.
There is a possibility than very driven highly perfectionist young men are not the ideal candidates for this career. I have flown with FOs like this, and it's not much fun, and doesn't make for a good flight deck environment . They often have a rigid view of what is correct and what is not, and rarely relax, which is contagious.
Some airlines put sociability at the top of the list of desired qualities when hiring. I'm guessing here, but perhaps LH doesn't?
RobinOakapple said:
Jasandjules said:
LucreLout said:
Is it not possible to fit a GPS, Altimeter, and some control software that prevent a plane crashing into the ground by having the autopilot override the controls?
"Sorry Dave, I can't let you fly any lower, there's a mountain in the way."
I get that while planes only usually land at specific places, emergency landings are required from time to time so some team based override should be possible. Or the program would relinquish control once it could no longer make height.
Feasible or just dumb?
At the risk of sounding stupid, such a device would have to be disabled at some stage to land. Therefore the pilot/co-pilot will know how to override it and crash if that was their aim...."Sorry Dave, I can't let you fly any lower, there's a mountain in the way."
I get that while planes only usually land at specific places, emergency landings are required from time to time so some team based override should be possible. Or the program would relinquish control once it could no longer make height.
Feasible or just dumb?
kev1974 said:
Can't think of a way round the secure door problem, so they need to fit a Big Red Button, both inside and outside the flight deck (with suitable protective cover!), anyone hits that, the thing just autopilots itself to the nearest designated appropriate-instrument-equipped runway, and lands, come what may. Yeah there's a chance it might still crash but a chance of crashing is better than definitely crashing, if someone goes loco at the controls, or terrorists seize the thing.
Although one idea does occur, couldn't there just be some sort of physical key (could be an electronic card of some sort) that the one going to the toilet takes with him in his pocket when he goes to the loo, if that isn't present inside the cockpit then the logic makes it impossible to lock out the cabin door. A bit like my Mazda had keyless entry, if the key was detected somewhere IN the car then I was unable to lock myself out, this would work the other way around, if the fob was NOT detected inside the cockpit then don't allow the door to be fully locked.
Tentative, but: Although one idea does occur, couldn't there just be some sort of physical key (could be an electronic card of some sort) that the one going to the toilet takes with him in his pocket when he goes to the loo, if that isn't present inside the cockpit then the logic makes it impossible to lock out the cabin door. A bit like my Mazda had keyless entry, if the key was detected somewhere IN the car then I was unable to lock myself out, this would work the other way around, if the fob was NOT detected inside the cockpit then don't allow the door to be fully locked.
Terrorist waits for Captain to go for a dump.
Terrorist takes cabin crew member hostage at knifepoint, forcing them to enter cockpit access code
First Officer can't fully lock the door out because El Capitano is on the thunderbox doing the Telegraph crossword with the magic keyfob
Yes, I know it's unlikely, but that's the logic that has to be applied.
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