Germanwings A320 crashed in France :(
Discussion
Legend83 said:
Interesting post on PPrune:
I think the above points are largely fair comments, apart from 4. PPrune said:
I've been following this thread for a couple of days, but I haven't yet seen this particular argument (individual bits collated from numerous sources including the French BFMTV Live Feed):
1. Andreas Lubitz was a very intense young man. One of his friends from years ago said that "he would have died if he had failed to become a pilot". He clearly set himself very important goals which could not be missed or changed.
2. He was a perfectionist. This and 1. above are well-known causative factors in depression.
3. His severe depression led to a lengthy period off work. Lufthansa of course knew about this depression: this in itself would have been very difficult for him to accept.
3. His colleagues mocked him for having been a flight attendant for a period.
4. He wanted very much to go long-haul but was not accepted.
5. High intensity short-haul, for someone with Lubitz's make up. would soon become tedious, stressful and unsatisfying (as it did for me, and others I know). He could at this stage be thinking: "I sacrificed all of those years and efforts for this?" (as I regret to say I did).
6. Criticism from training captains would have been very difficult for him. Much more than for an easy going FO.
7. Any or all of the above could have led him to see a lapse back into severe depression as a fate worse than death. See 1. again.
There is a possibility than very driven highly perfectionist young men are not the ideal candidates for this career. I have flown with FOs like this, and it's not much fun, and doesn't make for a good flight deck environment . They often have a rigid view of what is correct and what is not, and rarely relax, which is contagious.
Some airlines put sociability at the top of the list of desired qualities when hiring. I'm guessing here, but perhaps LH doesn't?
1. Andreas Lubitz was a very intense young man. One of his friends from years ago said that "he would have died if he had failed to become a pilot". He clearly set himself very important goals which could not be missed or changed.
2. He was a perfectionist. This and 1. above are well-known causative factors in depression.
3. His severe depression led to a lengthy period off work. Lufthansa of course knew about this depression: this in itself would have been very difficult for him to accept.
3. His colleagues mocked him for having been a flight attendant for a period.
4. He wanted very much to go long-haul but was not accepted.
5. High intensity short-haul, for someone with Lubitz's make up. would soon become tedious, stressful and unsatisfying (as it did for me, and others I know). He could at this stage be thinking: "I sacrificed all of those years and efforts for this?" (as I regret to say I did).
6. Criticism from training captains would have been very difficult for him. Much more than for an easy going FO.
7. Any or all of the above could have led him to see a lapse back into severe depression as a fate worse than death. See 1. again.
There is a possibility than very driven highly perfectionist young men are not the ideal candidates for this career. I have flown with FOs like this, and it's not much fun, and doesn't make for a good flight deck environment . They often have a rigid view of what is correct and what is not, and rarely relax, which is contagious.
Some airlines put sociability at the top of the list of desired qualities when hiring. I'm guessing here, but perhaps LH doesn't?
OK, I don't know how Lufthansa allocate their new pilots - maybe the good ones go to LH (with the prospect of the long haul one day) and the less good guys get dumped in Germanwings mediocrity, but unless your airline is based in the middle of the Indian or Pacific ocean, no fresh FO with 650 hours is going to get anywhere near a long haul roster for a good few years. You have to build up your experience and hours and that's done in short haul first. Whether or not you get to go on a long haul fleet is decided on experience and seniority and is not determinded when you first qualify.
Legend83 said:
If any of this turns out to be true, I wasn't far off in my theory.
Worrying.Random anecdote. When i was a sprog we had a kid in our ATC who was what the commandos would call corps-pissed. Proper little swallowed the book do no wrong buttoned down s
t he was. Every opportunity he got he went on how he was going to fly Tornados. Cut a long story short, we were on camp at Kinloss and he was refused permission to do the AEF up in a Nimrod. His mummy had written our CO a letter suggesting precious wasn't to fly as he had some behaviour issues. When the CO broke the news to him he had a full blown 3 year old toddler tantrum. Hysterical screaming and crying, rolling about on the floor kicking and screaming Gollum style. Took four members of the adult staff to restrain him. His old man had to drive up to Kinloss overnight to collect him, and he was never seen again at ATC. Up until that point he'd been the CO's golden boy, right up to the point he bit him.People hey? Meh.
Edit to add: what was most worrying was I'd been on the shooting range next to him the previous day when he was in possession of a loaded cadet rifle. Dread to think in retrospect what could have happened if he'd been a slow-burning psycho.
Edited by nyxster on Friday 27th March 15:52
CAPP0 said:
Digga said:
Anyway, I can offer the solution in one word: pissbottles. A two litre pop bottle each for the aircrew and no one even needs to leave their seat.
Going to need built-in commodes as well, then, just in case...
A Poster on here - a pilot who surely must know what he is talking about- says that a pilot cannot be stopped from crashing a plane, even if the Captain is sitting next to him.
That surely renders all discussion about security doors null and void?
Having a cabin crew member in the cockpit might -just- cause a suicidal pilot to re-think or delay, but is probably nothing more than a gimmick to reassure passengers.
That surely renders all discussion about security doors null and void?
Having a cabin crew member in the cockpit might -just- cause a suicidal pilot to re-think or delay, but is probably nothing more than a gimmick to reassure passengers.
nyxster said:
grand cherokee said:
sorry, but you have never been in the zone!
you have a friend cleaning up - bet you have never taken hostile fire - the AK 47/54 round about to kill you?
end of story
An Astra GTE backfired while i was filling in a chit for teabags once. That syou have a friend cleaning up - bet you have never taken hostile fire - the AK 47/54 round about to kill you?
end of story
Edited by grand cherokee on Friday 27th March 14:18
t me right up, i can tell you.Wasn't in the zone though so no medals were forthcoming.
Legend83 said:
Interesting post on PPrune:
This is the point I was trying to make yesterday, although far less eloquently. PPrune said:
I've been following this thread for a couple of days, but I haven't yet seen this particular argument (individual bits collated from numerous sources including the French BFMTV Live Feed):
1. Andreas Lubitz was a very intense young man. One of his friends from years ago said that "he would have died if he had failed to become a pilot". He clearly set himself very important goals which could not be missed or changed.
2. He was a perfectionist. This and 1. above are well-known causative factors in depression.
3. His severe depression led to a lengthy period off work. Lufthansa of course knew about this depression: this in itself would have been very difficult for him to accept.
3. His colleagues mocked him for having been a flight attendant for a period.
4. He wanted very much to go long-haul but was not accepted.
5. High intensity short-haul, for someone with Lubitz's make up. would soon become tedious, stressful and unsatisfying (as it did for me, and others I know). He could at this stage be thinking: "I sacrificed all of those years and efforts for this?" (as I regret to say I did).
6. Criticism from training captains would have been very difficult for him. Much more than for an easy going FO.
7. Any or all of the above could have led him to see a lapse back into severe depression as a fate worse than death. See 1. again.
There is a possibility than very driven highly perfectionist young men are not the ideal candidates for this career. I have flown with FOs like this, and it's not much fun, and doesn't make for a good flight deck environment . They often have a rigid view of what is correct and what is not, and rarely relax, which is contagious.
Some airlines put sociability at the top of the list of desired qualities when hiring. I'm guessing here, but perhaps LH doesn't?
If any of this turns out to be true, I wasn't far off in my theory.1. Andreas Lubitz was a very intense young man. One of his friends from years ago said that "he would have died if he had failed to become a pilot". He clearly set himself very important goals which could not be missed or changed.
2. He was a perfectionist. This and 1. above are well-known causative factors in depression.
3. His severe depression led to a lengthy period off work. Lufthansa of course knew about this depression: this in itself would have been very difficult for him to accept.
3. His colleagues mocked him for having been a flight attendant for a period.
4. He wanted very much to go long-haul but was not accepted.
5. High intensity short-haul, for someone with Lubitz's make up. would soon become tedious, stressful and unsatisfying (as it did for me, and others I know). He could at this stage be thinking: "I sacrificed all of those years and efforts for this?" (as I regret to say I did).
6. Criticism from training captains would have been very difficult for him. Much more than for an easy going FO.
7. Any or all of the above could have led him to see a lapse back into severe depression as a fate worse than death. See 1. again.
There is a possibility than very driven highly perfectionist young men are not the ideal candidates for this career. I have flown with FOs like this, and it's not much fun, and doesn't make for a good flight deck environment . They often have a rigid view of what is correct and what is not, and rarely relax, which is contagious.
Some airlines put sociability at the top of the list of desired qualities when hiring. I'm guessing here, but perhaps LH doesn't?
Given all of the above possibles, has the Captain saying "I'm landing today" finally pushed him over the edge? I guess it will be difficult to ever know, unless there is anything evidential in his home to verify his mental state.
I worked with a similar chap to that described (sensitive, highly intelligent, couldn't accept being dumped by a girlfriend) who suffered from obvious serious depression. After a particularly stressful day at the IT coalface he decided to end it all by driving his car into an oak tree on his way home. Only flaw in the plan was it was a brand new VW Polo with decent crash protection and airbag'd up to the max, so he ended up in hospital with a large headache but ultimately failed in his attempt. The next day he called in sick, calmly telling our boss that "someone tried to take my life last night", very matter of factly. Boss paid him a visit in hospital afterwards, from where he was sectioned, and couldn't get over how calm he was about it. Just had a bad day and decided that enough was enough.
Which is a long-winded way of saying that, in my experience, the seemingly smallest of things can push vulnerable people over the edge.
Cobalt Blue said:
A Poster on here - a pilot who surely must know what he is talking about- says that a pilot cannot be stopped from crashing a plane, even if the Captain is sitting next to him.
That surely renders all discussion about security doors null and void?
Having a cabin crew member in the cockpit might -just- cause a suicidal pilot to re-think or delay, but is probably nothing more than a gimmick to reassure passengers.
That surely renders all discussion about security doors null and void?
Having a cabin crew member in the cockpit might -just- cause a suicidal pilot to re-think or delay, but is probably nothing more than a gimmick to reassure passengers.
Job jobbed?
Cobalt Blue said:
Having a cabin crew member in the cockpit might -just- cause a suicidal pilot to re-think or delay, but is probably nothing more than a gimmick to reassure passengers.
Unless they start training the trolley dollies to do Brazilian jiu-jitsu, I can't imagine it achieving much.JuniorD said:
I think the above points are largely fair comments, apart from 4.
OK, I don't know how Lufthansa allocate their new pilots - maybe the good ones go to LH (with the prospect of the long haul one day) and the less good guys get dumped in Germanwings mediocrity, but unless your airline is based in the middle of the Indian or Pacific ocean, no fresh FO with 650 hours is going to get anywhere near a long haul roster for a good few years. You have to build up your experience and hours and that's done in short haul first. Whether or not you get to go on a long haul fleet is decided on experience and seniority and is not determinded when you first qualify.
Yes, agreed. My BIL has been flying short haul for 6 years now and has only just landed a long-haul rating.OK, I don't know how Lufthansa allocate their new pilots - maybe the good ones go to LH (with the prospect of the long haul one day) and the less good guys get dumped in Germanwings mediocrity, but unless your airline is based in the middle of the Indian or Pacific ocean, no fresh FO with 650 hours is going to get anywhere near a long haul roster for a good few years. You have to build up your experience and hours and that's done in short haul first. Whether or not you get to go on a long haul fleet is decided on experience and seniority and is not determinded when you first qualify.
Cobalt Blue said:
There was another scene in that film which might go some way to de-stressing an uptight pilot!
I know, i was thinking that might be a potential solution.Obviously the BA ladies would have to take their false teeth out first. Although i can see pilots threatening suicide on every flight aboard Emirates so it might backfire.
GSE said:
The Moose said:
All the low cost airlines are doing is giving the customers what they want. That's why they're so successful.
Would Wayne and Waynetta really pay £350 for their flight from Luton to Tenerife instead of the £49 per person they did pay?!
I keep hearing them rolling this out as an excuse. At the expense of safety (through pilot stress) it seems. Is that what I want? No. I do know that if I could afford it I'd pay £350 NOT to sit next to Wayne and Waynetta Would Wayne and Waynetta really pay £350 for their flight from Luton to Tenerife instead of the £49 per person they did pay?!
Edited by The Moose on Friday 27th March 17:16
4v6 said:
Im also of the opinion that there needs to be some kind of remote take control option by atc/authorities in the case of a plane being hijacked to circumvent these kinds of occurences.
The idea for this has already been considered "PATIN":http://www.icas.org/ICAS_ARCHIVE/ICAS2010/PAPERS/2...
fido said:
.. and then you have the potential problem of unhinged trolley dollies!
We've already got that problem. Especially about once a month when they give AQ a run for their money in the terrorism stakes.I once took a bottle of heineken onto a BA flight from the business class lounge,
Big mistake
You shouldn't have that. It doesn't fit in the bin.
You shouldn't have that arse love, it doesn't fit in the aisle...
Caller into LBC; a pilot who has depression and flown a plane whilst his head was 'somewhere else'
http://www.lbc.co.uk/the-pilot-whos-flown-while-de...
http://www.lbc.co.uk/the-pilot-whos-flown-while-de...
-DeaDLocK- said:
I spent some time in the cockpit of an A380 at take-off and cruise (capt is a buddy) on a commercial flight, and one thought I had was how easy it was for a psycho to make things go horribly wrong. There were a number of big red switches (some behind flaps), and I reckon if I started hitting enough of them the st would hit the fan.
I suppose pilots can go psychotic as well, just like the rest of us.
My thoughts are with the families.
Same in a car though. A psycho passenger could just reach over and yank the wheel over, or haul on the handbrake, both of which will result in an unexpected and immediate loss of control and a crash of some description.t would hit the fan.I suppose pilots can go psychotic as well, just like the rest of us.
My thoughts are with the families.
Unfortunately no machine or system can be made immune from deliberate and calculated malicious acts.
Legend83 said:
Interesting post on PPrune:
to be fair,large parts of that description could be describing many german professionals i have met.PPrune said:
I've been following this thread for a couple of days, but I haven't yet seen this particular argument (individual bits collated from numerous sources including the French BFMTV Live Feed):
1. Andreas Lubitz was a very intense young man. One of his friends from years ago said that "he would have died if he had failed to become a pilot". He clearly set himself very important goals which could not be missed or changed.
2. He was a perfectionist. This and 1. above are well-known causative factors in depression.
3. His severe depression led to a lengthy period off work. Lufthansa of course knew about this depression: this in itself would have been very difficult for him to accept.
3. His colleagues mocked him for having been a flight attendant for a period.
4. He wanted very much to go long-haul but was not accepted.
5. High intensity short-haul, for someone with Lubitz's make up. would soon become tedious, stressful and unsatisfying (as it did for me, and others I know). He could at this stage be thinking: "I sacrificed all of those years and efforts for this?" (as I regret to say I did).
6. Criticism from training captains would have been very difficult for him. Much more than for an easy going FO.
7. Any or all of the above could have led him to see a lapse back into severe depression as a fate worse than death. See 1. again.
There is a possibility than very driven highly perfectionist young men are not the ideal candidates for this career. I have flown with FOs like this, and it's not much fun, and doesn't make for a good flight deck environment . They often have a rigid view of what is correct and what is not, and rarely relax, which is contagious.
Some airlines put sociability at the top of the list of desired qualities when hiring. I'm guessing here, but perhaps LH doesn't?
If any of this turns out to be true, I wasn't far off in my theory.1. Andreas Lubitz was a very intense young man. One of his friends from years ago said that "he would have died if he had failed to become a pilot". He clearly set himself very important goals which could not be missed or changed.
2. He was a perfectionist. This and 1. above are well-known causative factors in depression.
3. His severe depression led to a lengthy period off work. Lufthansa of course knew about this depression: this in itself would have been very difficult for him to accept.
3. His colleagues mocked him for having been a flight attendant for a period.
4. He wanted very much to go long-haul but was not accepted.
5. High intensity short-haul, for someone with Lubitz's make up. would soon become tedious, stressful and unsatisfying (as it did for me, and others I know). He could at this stage be thinking: "I sacrificed all of those years and efforts for this?" (as I regret to say I did).
6. Criticism from training captains would have been very difficult for him. Much more than for an easy going FO.
7. Any or all of the above could have led him to see a lapse back into severe depression as a fate worse than death. See 1. again.
There is a possibility than very driven highly perfectionist young men are not the ideal candidates for this career. I have flown with FOs like this, and it's not much fun, and doesn't make for a good flight deck environment . They often have a rigid view of what is correct and what is not, and rarely relax, which is contagious.
Some airlines put sociability at the top of the list of desired qualities when hiring. I'm guessing here, but perhaps LH doesn't?
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