Germanwings A320 crashed in France :(

[JensenA]

User33678888 said:

el stovey said:

User33678888 said:

I call bullst on being empathetic. This was murder. He intentionally killed 140+ others. If he wanted to commit suicide so much there are much better ways for everyone concerned.

He's not acting rationally though, he's suffering from mental Illness.

So is Anders Breivik. Doesn't stop him being a mass murderer.

Edited by User33678888 on Saturday 28th March 09:55

Nor does it preclude him from being Mentally ill. It's an explanation, not an attempt to justify his actions.

[anonymous-user]

User33678888 said:

So was Anders Breivik. Didn't stop him being a mass murderer.

Mental illness, isn't just one condition, there's all kinds of treatable conditions that come under the umbrella of mental illness.

What mental illness was Breivik suffering from, he ended up in prison not a hospital.

Calling the F/O a murderer and closing the case doesn't really reduce the likelyhood of it happening again.

[anonymous-user]

Well how would you stop it happening again?

People aren't machines and you don't get a lifetime guarantee of normal operation when a child is born, you can put in place ways of doing things, etc but nothing is ever a 100% certainty because there is a fallible person or persons involved.

Unfortunately these terrible events do happen but I cannot think how you could stop it ever happening again.

[Silver993tt]

User33678888 said:

el stovey said:

User33678888 said:

I call bullst on being empathetic. This was murder. He intentionally killed 140+ others. If he wanted to commit suicide so much there are much better ways for everyone concerned.

He's not acting rationally though, he's suffering from mental Illness.

So is Anders Breivik. Doesn't stop him being a mass murderer.

Edited by User33678888 on Saturday 28th March 09:55

Sure but some in society are more prone to react to the pressures of that society. In rare cases, those pressures can push the mental state of a person beyond a certain threshold. Society is made up of people so ultimately the majority are to blame. People are born and grow up in different mental states, they have no choice in that fact. Blaming people for their final action is pointless as those who blame rarely see or are interested in the causes of that final action and yet it could happen to anyone, even those commenting on here.

[anonymous-user]

gottans said:

Well how would you stop it happening again?

People aren't machines and you don't get a lifetime guarantee of normal operation when a child is born, you can put in place ways of doing things, etc but nothing is ever a 100% certainty because there is a fallible person or persons involved.

Unfortunately these terrible events do happen but I cannot think how you could stop it ever happening again.

I never said you could stop it but you could reduce it by having better monitoring of mental health amongst pilots.

Perhaps also some more study into the events where pilots have deliberately crashed aircraft. Are there similarities? Why do pilots often do it when the other person is out of the flight deck? Is it just because there will be less resistance or are people more likely to do it if alone for some other psychological reason?

How much of a factor is the environment they work in? Are the annual medical examinations and training/checking processes adequate? What about how they are recruiting pilots? Perhaps the management have helped create an atmosphere where people are more likely to crack.

There's lots I would look at if I was Lufthansa or german wings management.

[-Z-]

Silver993tt said:

gottans said:

Well I think the beeb has sunk to a new low, they are running a story about how much compensation the families will receive for losing a family member in the crash.

I think this is disgusting, I know the media is obsessed with telling us how much everything costs but please..

The prosecutors have been whipping up the whole situation about compensation because they get a big percentage. They really don't give a monkey's about the families. I think that the vast majority of any payouts should go to charity with immediate and near term costs to the families covered.

Are you joking?

Many family's main breadwinners will have been on that plane. Say young professional earning £100-150k, 35 years working life, I would want the family to get at least £5 million+.

If you were on that plane you you be happy with your kids having a poorer quality of life through no fault of your own?

Or would you rather fund some charity and advertising execs salary?

[bitchstewie]

el stovey said:

I never said you could stop it but you could reduce it by having better monitoring of mental health amongst pilots.

As you are a pilot, can I ask a couple of questions as it's not something I'd have any idea about.

If you felt you had a mental health issue would you feel you could raise it with your employer and ask for help?

What steps does your employer currently take that might catch a potential issue in the early stages if you did keep quiet?

[road hog]

Possible .

http://insidesurgery.com/2015/03/andreas-lubitz-ly...

[anonymous-user]

bhstewie said:

As you are a pilot, can I ask a couple of questions as it's not something I'd have any idea about.

If you felt you had a mental health issue would you feel you could raise it with your employer and ask for help?

What steps does your employer currently take that might catch a potential issue in the early stages if you did keep quiet?

If I thought I was suffering from stress or fatigue or depression, I would contact them and they would take me off work untill I felt better. They would offer help as they want their employees fit and able to work again. I imagine I would be well looked after.

If I kept quiet, I doubt it would be brought to anyone's attention, unless it resulted in poor performance or a discipline issue.

There's no ongoing psychological monitoring if that's what you're asking.

[User33678888]

Silver993tt said:

User33678888 said:

el stovey said:

User33678888 said:

I call bullst on being empathetic. This was murder. He intentionally killed 140+ others. If he wanted to commit suicide so much there are much better ways for everyone concerned.

He's not acting rationally though, he's suffering from mental Illness.

So is Anders Breivik. Doesn't stop him being a mass murderer.

Edited by User33678888 on Saturday 28th March 09:55

Sure but some in society are more prone to react to the pressures of that society. In rare cases, those pressures can push the mental state of a person beyond a certain threshold. Society is made up of people so ultimately the majority are to blame. People are born and grow up in different mental states, they have no choice in that fact. Blaming people for their final action is pointless as those who blame rarely see or are interested in the causes of that final action and yet it could happen to anyone, even those commenting on here.

I understand all of that. But I cannot see that he didn't know the difference between right and wrong. If he was so unhappy with his own life he was entitled to end it. Taking everyone else on the plane (who didn't want to end theirs) is wrong in every country and religion the world over. What caused him to do so is coming out now - he may have committed suicide himself but in the process he intentionally killed all of his passengers and crew, seemingly in a calm and collected manner. He knew what he was doing and chose to do so. People with a bit of depression don't do that usually. Sometimes they kill themselves, but it's very rare they take 150 people with them. Perhaps he had some kind of much more serious condition, but until it comes out that he had anything more than depression I'm calling him a murderer. Flame away.

[Sheepshanks]

cardigankid said:

All I am saying, and I am surprised that it is controversial, is that no one who has shown signs of mental instability, whether 'cured' or not should be allowed to work in a job like an airline pilot.

Not sure how you'd define "mental instability" but if it covered depression and stress related conditions then the pilot population would be decimated.

[bitchstewie]

el stovey said:

If I thought I was suffering from stress or fatigue or depression, I would contact them and they would take me off work untill I felt better. They would offer help as they want their employees fit and able to work again. I imagine I would be well looked after.

If I kept quiet, I doubt it would be brought to anyone's attention, unless it resulted in poor performance or a discipline issue.

There's no ongoing psychological monitoring if that's what you're asking.

Thanks, wasn't so much asking if there was specific psychological screening, just curious if it's given any prominence as part of the (presumably regular) medicals vs. relying on essentially honesty or a concerned colleague.

[JensenA]

el stovey said:

bhstewie said:

As you are a pilot, can I ask a couple of questions as it's not something I'd have any idea about.

If you felt you had a mental health issue would you feel you could raise it with your employer and ask for help?

What steps does your employer currently take that might catch a potential issue in the early stages if you did keep quiet?

If I thought I was suffering from stress or fatigue or depression, I would contact them and they would take me off work untill I felt better. They would offer help as they want their employees fit and able to work again. I imagine I would be well looked after.

If I kept quiet, I doubt it would be brought to anyone's attention, unless it resulted in poor performance or a discipline issue.

There's no ongoing psychological monitoring if that's what you're asking.

I doubt if you would be well looked after by your company. They want pilots who are fit to fly. You would be sent home and the NHS would treat you, whilst your employer looked for ways to get rid of you, you are now a liability, so you'd probably lose your job, there are plenty of pilots out there looking for work who could take your place. And if you were 'ill' enough to want to kill yourself by crashing your plane, then the last thing you would do is tell your employer or doctor that you have mental problems.

[croyde]

If the stories in the paper's are to be believed, this man had a major mental problem whilst training to fly. I thought that a fail during training was a fail, not a chance to have another go.

[anonymous-user]

bhstewie said:

Thanks, wasn't so much asking if there was specific psychological screening, just curious if it's given any prominence as part of the (presumably regular) medicals vs. relying on essentially honesty or a concerned colleague.

No, it's not part of the yearly medicals.

Plenty of pilots do get time off for stress or depression though. It's quite an open environment, having time off wouldn't limit your career or have other repercussions.

Hopefully this event won't reduce pilot's willingness to put their hand up.

I know in other airlines the employer isnt as understanding or helpful as mine is though and more pressure is put on the employee to come to work when unfit.

[RobinOakapple]

There's no doubt he was a murderer, I think we can all agree on that.

There are a number of questions that flow from that, not necessarily in this order-

Why did he decide to do it?

Is there any way the state of mind that led up to that decision and action could have been detected beforehand?

Is there a way of detecting such people, assuming they will try to hide their condition?

Is it economically viable?

Is there a way of stopping such people, if they remain undetected, from carrying out such actions?

[GSE]

cardigankid said:

Pretty well. I think that all the empathising is counterproductive. I don't mind helping people, but in the end they have simply got to get a grip. It is not the same as a dose of the flu.

This is a typical response from those who have never suffered or understand depression. Can I suggest that you get a grip and do some research before posting. Depression means that you slowly stop to function, simple everyday tasks become difficult and you are unable to 'get as grip', as the uninformed love to quote.
There are various ways around it through cognitive therapy and drugs, but there seems to be no guarantee of a positive result and sometimes the effects get worse on the journey. Empathising is most certainly not counterproductive.

It seems this guy might have have developed criminal intent for some time, possibly as a consequence of the depression - the two combined have brought about this dreadful tragedy. Knee jerk reactions and name calling are the last things needed: The cockpit door policy invoked after 9/11 had a major flaw in that it was possible for someone in the Cockpit to completely lock out everyone else on board

[Dr Jekyll]

croyde said:

If the stories in the paper's are to be believed, this man had a major mental problem whilst training to fly. I thought that a fail during training was a fail, not a chance to have another go.

Interrupting training due to a medical issue is not the same as failing.

[TheSnitch]

cardigankid said:

trashbat said:

cardigankid said:

We have all known people who are on the edge and either a danger to themselves and others. People who cannot deal with reality should be taken out of circulation and sent to Sierra Leone to deal with the Ebola crisis, then they might understand what real st is like, and come back better people.

Just to be clear: that's your idea of mental health treatment, is it?

Pretty well. I think that all the empathising is counterproductive. I don't mind helping people, but in the end they have simply got to get a grip. It is not the same as a dose of the flu.

Is it any wonder people suffering from mental illnesses are sometimes reluctant to seek help when there are people around as ignorant and judgemental as this?

In terms of going forward, I doubt that the answer lies in trying to weed out those with mental illnesses, as some have suggested, although I think it is vital to have an environment where people in high pressure occupations who are responsible for the safety of others can be open with their employers and be supported through their recovery. It is perfectly possible for someone to develop an illness which wasn't present at the start of their career, so how would screening identify them?

So I think the focus needs to be on developing systems and protocols which minimise the chance of anyone being able to do anything like this again, perhaps by limiting the range of adjustments which can be made whilst one pilot is out of the cockpit, rather like the operation of trains on a single track with a passing loop, where a key has to be passed from one to another in order to proceed. I appreciate that's a very simplistic example, but I do think it's the way forward.

[croyde]

Aren't people in jobs such as tube driving better looked after than pilots for all these low cost carriers?

I wouldn't want them to turn into airline divas but surely pilots should be molly coddled and paid well ie making sure that they have as little to worry about in their private lives so that they can concentrate on their jobs.

The description someone gave earlier of a day in the life of a short haul pilot sounds awful.