Germanwings A320 crashed in France :(

[trashbat]

Driller said:

That is an excellent question. I'll try to find the answer.

Would be interested in a UK medical law perspective.

I'm not a medic of any kind, and it's probably been said already (and possibly by me) but in the UK, your doctor is obliged by the GMC guidelines to report you to the DVLA after diagnosing certain medical conditions, on the basis that it's for the greater public good. Ditto credible threats of suicide to the police.

Various documents here: http://www.gmc-uk.org/guidance/ethical_guidance/co...

Edit: however if you take that DVLA procedure as an example, you only inform them as a last resort, once you believe the patient is not going to comply with your guidance (or if they can't understand it in the first place). So, if you translate that to this case, where you'd written them a sick note and they said, 'OK, I will stay off work', then the moment at which you'd probably be compelled to report it is whilst watching the rescue effort on the TV news.

GMC said:

(Step 7) If you do not manage to persuade the patient to stop driving, or you discover that they are continuing to drive against your advice, you should contact the DVLA or DVA immediately and disclose any relevant medical information, in confidence, to the medical adviser

There's also something of a difference between reporting someone's medical condition to a state authority, and reporting it to a private employer, although it might end in the same way in most replays of this case.

Edited by trashbat on Sunday 29th March 16:38

[bitchstewie]

Well they can certainly report you to DVLA as it happened to my Mum when she had a condition which may have affected her whilst driving.

It would be quite bizarre if they're not allowed to do the same with an employer in the example of a pilot.

[Driller]

Amazing, I've read the French regs at least (anyone speak German?) and it would appear that even for epilepsie the doctor would be considered to have broken the code of medical confidentiality by telling the airline, so legally he couldn't do it!

[Finlandia]

Driller said:

Amazing, I've read the French regs at least (anyone speak German?) and it would appear that even for epilepsie the doctor would be considered to have broken the code of medical confidentiality by telling the airline, so legally he couldn't do it!

That is worrying.

[Driller]

Finlandia said:

Driller said:

Amazing, I've read the French regs at least (anyone speak German?) and it would appear that even for epilepsie the doctor would be considered to have broken the code of medical confidentiality by telling the airline, so legally he couldn't do it!

That is worrying.

Like I said, I don't know how it works in Germany and above is what the regs suggest in France but from what the pilot said in the interview (who is also a physician) it's similar in Germany.

[Sheepshanks]

Driller said:

Finlandia said:

Driller said:

Amazing, I've read the French regs at least (anyone speak German?) and it would appear that even for epilepsie the doctor would be considered to have broken the code of medical confidentiality by telling the airline, so legally he couldn't do it!

That is worrying.

Like I said, I don't know how it works in Germany and above is what the regs suggest in France but from what the pilot said in the interview (who is also a physician) it's similar in Germany.

I'd have thought it was the same pretty well everywhere, which is why I commented that another posters assertion that the employer is automatically told in Italy seems very odd.

Anyway, just think of the practicalities. How would it work?

[Driller]

Pretty simple I reckon. Any illness which could be considered a risk to others and the doctor sends a registered post communication to the employer.

[eharding]

Driller said:

Pretty simple I reckon. Any illness which could be considered a risk to others and the doctor sends a registered post communication to the employer.

Does your doctor know who your employer is?

[NicD]

Driller said:

Pretty simple I reckon. Any illness which could be considered a risk to others and the doctor sends a registered post communication to the employer.

even simpler, to a central, government agency which can check the various registers and take it from there.

Absolutely bizarre that the status quo relies on a mentally disturbed person recognising this in themselves and advising their employer.
What do we pay our representatives to do exactly?

[Driller]

eharding said:

Driller said:

Pretty simple I reckon. Any illness which could be considered a risk to others and the doctor sends a registered post communication to the employer.

Does your doctor know who your employer is?

Another very good question, although perhaps slightly better would be "how could your doctor find proof of your employer's identity?"

[sjabrown]

You might be surprised just how little doctors can disclose without patient permission in the UK(breach confidentiality): DVLA, admission of murder, threat to murder, terrorism, intent to rape, some gun crime and a fairly small number of notifiable diseases mainly communicable infections just about sums it up.

More info for those interested here: http://www.gmc-uk.org/Confidentiality___English_09...

I would say that it is not a general practitioners role to assess if a pilot is fit to fly. Aviation medicine is very specialist. How to get around the person who is given a "sick note" but is determined to go to work? I don't have an answer to that. Tighten up on what needs disclosed could easily lead to ill pilots not seeking help for their illness.

[eharding]

Driller said:

eharding said:

Driller said:

Pretty simple I reckon. Any illness which could be considered a risk to others and the doctor sends a registered post communication to the employer.

Does your doctor know who your employer is?

Another very good question, although perhaps slightly better would be "how could your doctor find proof of your employer's identity?"

You haven't answered the question - does your GP know who your employer is? I'm damned sure mine doesn't.

[Finlandia]

eharding said:

Driller said:

Pretty simple I reckon. Any illness which could be considered a risk to others and the doctor sends a registered post communication to the employer.

Does your doctor know who your employer is?

Every country has some sort of aviation authority, make it mandatory for the treating doctor to notify them of any illness that impairs the ability to control and fly an aircraft.

It should be in the interest of everyone.

[NDA]

eharding said:

Does your doctor know who your employer is?

Just what I was thinking.

Mine knows what my job title is - but I could have said anything, it's not checked. He does not know the industry or anything specific.

[KTF]

Finlandia said:

Every country has some sort of aviation authority, make it mandatory for the treating doctor to notify them of any illness that impairs the ability to control and fly an aircraft.

It should be in the interest of everyone.

What about bus and coach drivers, helicopter pilots, train drivers, ferry captains, surgeons, doctors, etc. Where would you draw the line?

Has it actually been confirmed that he was depressed at the time of the incident as all I have seen written was a reference that he was signed off due to it over his training period.

[Finlandia]

kapiteinlangzaam said:

A treating doctor as in your GP? That will just lead to every airline pilot telling their GP they are a bin man or similar.

Anything picked up at the specific aviation medicals will of course be acted on / passed on.

It works with drivers, at least in Finland and Sweden for most parts. If you go to the GP and are deemed not fit to drive, then authorities will be notified and that's the driving done. Your personal ID number is matched for drivers licences and gun permits (or at least should be in theory), if a match comes up the authorities are notified.

KTF said:

What about bus and coach drivers, helicopter pilots, train drivers, ferry captains, surgeons, doctors, etc. Where would you draw the line?

Has it actually been confirmed that he was depressed at the time of the incident as all I have seen written was a reference that he was signed off due to it over his training period.

As above, it works for drivers, especially for heavier vehicles but not only for them.

According to news in Sweden he was treated for eye problems and was depressed as a result of slowly going blind, among other things.

[theboss]

rover 623gsi said:

hornetrider said:

Oh my god. Looks like Bild have the transcript of the CVR with timings. It seems the passengers were screaming for between 5 and 8 minutes before the impact. Horrific.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3016466/Op...

just read that - absolutely awful and heartbreaking for the loved ones of those killed. It is the stuff of nightmares. Certainly makes it more difficult to feel any 'sympathy' towards the co-pilot's depression.

I must admit to feeling rather cynical when reading the initial claim that, on listening to the CVR, screams were heard only in the final few seconds before impact. The latest report does indeed suggest that the captain attempted to return to the cockpit very soon after leaving, a situation which turned frantic very quickly and thus for much of the duration of the descent there would have been panic throughout the cabin. This is truly awful for the relatives.

[croyde]

I had a heart attack in 2009 and before I had even got out of hospital about 5 days later, DVLA already knew so someone at the hospital must of been straight on to them.

I wish they had put a bit more thought into my treatment.

Eventually I had to pay privately to see my consultant who kindly wrote to them in order to allow me to drive again.

[NicD]

Pity you weren't a pilot! Then if you were sane and moral enough, you could turn yourself in.

Real thinkers, the people who devise the rules.

Edited by NicD on Sunday 29th March 20:19

[Mojocvh]

theboss said:

rover 623gsi said:

hornetrider said:

Oh my god. Looks like Bild have the transcript of the CVR with timings. It seems the passengers were screaming for between 5 and 8 minutes before the impact. Horrific.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3016466/Op...

just read that - absolutely awful and heartbreaking for the loved ones of those killed. It is the stuff of nightmares. Certainly makes it more difficult to feel any 'sympathy' towards the co-pilot's depression.

I must admit to feeling rather cynical when reading the initial claim that, on listening to the CVR, screams were heard only in the final few seconds before impact. The latest report does indeed suggest that the captain attempted to return to the cockpit very soon after leaving, a situation which turned frantic very quickly and thus for much of the duration of the descent there would have been panic throughout the cabin. This is truly awful for the relatives.

There was no need to exploit that information at all.

What a bunch of s!