Germanwings A320 crashed in France :(

Germanwings A320 crashed in France :(

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Timmy40

12,915 posts

197 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
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Slartifartfast said:
Dan_1981 said:
Or as the BBC have taken to phrasing it - none of the victims have been found intact.
Given the amount of birds and wildlife on the mountains, a lot of the 'material' will have disappeared already. Grim thought.
I would have thought pretty much everything would have been vapourised first by a combination of impact and fireball?

lord trumpton

7,321 posts

125 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
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Did it actually burn then? The debris in the released pics looks like fragmented debris and not burt and no scorched ground

KTF

9,788 posts

149 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
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lord trumpton said:
Did it actually burn then? The debris in the released pics looks like fragmented debris and not burt and no scorched ground
Apparently the fuel (and most other things) vaporise on impact.

In a way, its one of those things that would have been interesting to have been captured on camera.

One moment its a typical mountain type scene, then maybe some noise and a split second later total devastation in the time it takes you to blink.



Edited by KTF on Thursday 2nd April 11:13

KTF

9,788 posts

149 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
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el stovey said:
having more people in the flight deck does nothing.
An interesting point on the extra person mentioned on Pprune.

Pprune said:
...it requires that CC member to make a quick, accurate, on-the-fly diagnosis of the difference between a calm co-pilot intent on crashing the aircraft while the captain hammers on the door overcome by desperation (GermanWings, apparently) and a calm co-pilot intent on saving the aircraft while the captain hammers on the door overcome by delusion (JetBlue, as I understand).

Hainey

4,381 posts

199 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
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TheSnitch said:
el stovey said:
Maxf said:
The issue here seems to be about mental health and stopping someone like this being in the situation where he is in control of 150 lives, rather than xyz door system. Whether this is by tougher rules, or more sypmathetic employers, I genuinely dont know.
Exactly.

A new door or having more people in the flight deck does nothing.
That's interesting. I believe you're a pilot?

I'll admit I thought the opposite, but I bow to your judgement on this.

May I ask a question? As pilots you and your colleagues must have more insight than anyone when it comes to preventing this happening again. As such, are you able as a profession to have a significant input into what happens next and what measures airlines introduce?

Thanks.
The extra person on the flight deck needs to be another qualified individual IMHO. Then you are into having three ATPLs on the flight deck though, and the industry isn't going to bear the cost of that for a heartbeat. This is an industry where people actually pay to fly with some airlines. Pilots are seen as a cost base, not an asset.

No disrespect to the cabin crew, but if you put the alt bug down for a level change and calmly turn the radios quiet, they aren't going to know whats going on until it's unrecoverable anyway. Or if your high in the cruise and you want to start being a test pilot, it only takes a few seconds to get yourself into a MMO/VMO crossover situation where your in a down angle with a fully transonic wing and bits start breaking off. Would a hostie be able to intervene then? No, I doubt it.

So unless we start giving them a copy of Prof. McDoo's crib guide for Airbus to read in their downtime, then having a CC member inside the door is only a move to keep joe public happy, it's not a practical answer.

JuniorD

8,616 posts

222 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
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I don't think anyone is expecting a cabin crew member to jiu jitsu a rogue pilot if he so much as glances sideways. But potentially crazy people would benefit from having someone, i.e. anyone, else in the cockpit so they are not alone with their thoughts. The mere presence of a cabin crew member would be a distraction if nothing else.

Hainey

4,381 posts

199 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
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JuniorD said:
I don't think anyone is expecting a cabin crew member to jiu jitsu a rogue pilot if he so much as glances sideways. But potentially crazy people would benefit from having someone, i.e. anyone, else in the cockpit so they are not alone with their thoughts. The mere presence of a cabin crew member would be a distraction if nothing else.
The cabin crew would need to know something was wrong. See my post about the first example.

arguti

1,772 posts

185 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
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At a slight tangent, but here is a recollection from a El Al 707 captain after foiling a hijacking and then getting bked out by his bosses for relocating the sky marshal to the cockpit amongst other things....

http://www.timesofisrael.com/how-to-defeat-airplan...


JuniorD

8,616 posts

222 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
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Hainey said:
JuniorD said:
I don't think anyone is expecting a cabin crew member to jiu jitsu a rogue pilot if he so much as glances sideways. But potentially crazy people would benefit from having someone, i.e. anyone, else in the cockpit so they are not alone with their thoughts. The mere presence of a cabin crew member would be a distraction if nothing else.
The cabin crew would need to know something was wrong. See my post about the first example.
What I'm saying is they would not be there to intervene or carry out some action to save the day. No additional crew member up front can stop the inevitable, but if Fritz has someone up there with him that he knows he might not be so inclined to go to the dark place in his mind there and then. He might save it up for when he's at the tram stop or something. In the Germanwings incident, FO got the captain out of the cockpit. Why did he do that when he could have caused a catastrophe with the captain beside him? Clearly one of the conditions the FO had was to be alone in his act. The presence of anyone in the cockpit could possibly have scuppered that.


Oakey

27,523 posts

215 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
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Guam said:
A poster was seriously castigated for suggesting the background to this could be a love triangle and after much laughing and finger pointing, it now transpires the poster might have been pretty near the mark.

Either a lucky guess or he had some inside info, not going to know until he reappears to clarify! smile
Allow me to blow your mind.

Murderer Andreas Lubitz running a marathon



Murderer and BA Pilot Robert Brown who planned to crash his plane running a marathon



From this we can clearly conclude that running marathons turns people into killers.


Hainey

4,381 posts

199 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
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JuniorD said:
Hainey said:
JuniorD said:
I don't think anyone is expecting a cabin crew member to jiu jitsu a rogue pilot if he so much as glances sideways. But potentially crazy people would benefit from having someone, i.e. anyone, else in the cockpit so they are not alone with their thoughts. The mere presence of a cabin crew member would be a distraction if nothing else.
The cabin crew would need to know something was wrong. See my post about the first example.
What I'm saying is they would not be there to intervene or carry out some action to save the day. No additional crew member up front can stop the inevitable, but if Fritz has someone up there with him that he knows he might not be so inclined to go to the dark place in his mind there and then. He might save it up for when he's at the tram stop or something. In the Germanwings incident, FO got the captain out of the cockpit. Why did he do that when he could have caused a catastrophe with the captain beside him? Clearly one of the conditions the FO had was to be alone in his act. The presence of anyone in the cockpit could possibly have scuppered that.
Sorry, but I have to disagree.

First, he was never going to do it at a tram stop. This is a guy on record with telling his girlfriend he was 'going to be famous, the world would know his name' but he wouldn't say how.

Secondly, the Captain would have spotted it a mile off. Thats why you fly two crew. Pilot flying, pilot monitoring. So it would never happen with the skip in the left hand seat beside him.

Back to the 'hostie in the flight deck would prevent it point.' Well, say your in clag. No vis. Or it's night and hardly any visual clues. Would they notice if you bugged for a gradual descent? No, and they wouldn't worry if they did. It's a level change, yeah? Buy the time they did, too late..

The facts are the failings here are with the human mind, and how I think mental illness is viewed and treated. I have a good friend who had a horrific experience in the flight deck, developed a mild case of PTSD and fully recovered. Could he get his medical back? No. Because no doctor would take that final step of signing him fit to fly because if there was an incident of any sort, even though completely unrelated to his illness, they were going to get their licence to practice suspended until the AAIB was complete.

Hence, you have a guy who is genuinely one of the best pilots I've ever flown beside, a trophy winner when he went through flight school, unable to hold his licence and he spent six years in no mans land. Ridiculous.

Dr Jekyll

23,820 posts

260 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
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Hainey said:
Back to the 'hostie in the flight deck would prevent it point.' Well, say your in clag. No vis. Or it's night and hardly any visual clues. Would they notice if you bugged for a gradual descent? No, and they wouldn't worry if they did. It's a level change, yeah? Buy the time they did, too late..
It wouldn't be foolproof but at least when the other pilot started banging on the door they'd realise something was up.

Of course once a hostie went postal and tried to crash the aircraft all the rules would be changed again.

anonymous-user

Original Poster:

53 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
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Hainey said:
Secondly, the Captain would have spotted it a mile off. Thats why you fly two crew. Pilot flying, pilot monitoring. So it would never happen with the skip in the left hand seat beside him.
.
That's completely wrong as explained about 100 times now.

anonymous-user

Original Poster:

53 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
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I haven't read the whole thread. It's 23 big boy pages, and I simply haven't got time...

But.

All the talk of 2 people in the flight cabin at all times makes me wonder, if a co-pilot wanted to crash the plane, could he simply just kick the panel a few times? Break a few instruments, cause a short or five, kill a display screen that shows something important like position or height or something, and everyone else is buggered - even if they can get to the controls?

richardxjr

7,561 posts

209 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
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The C4 thing last night was quite interesting. They had a retied pilot on there who every flight for 18 months had to fight himself mentally into not causing oblivion by hitting the fuel cut off switches. Which he could do in 1 second regardless of anyone else being in the cockpit or not. He was convinced he would do it the next flight before he thankfully forced himself to retire.

Some madness that took over his life over such a long time yet could not speak to anyone else about it.



anonymous-user

Original Poster:

53 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
quotequote all
Hainey said:
Back to the 'hostie in the flight deck would prevent it point.' Well, say your in clag. No vis. Or it's night and hardly any visual clues. Would they notice if you bugged for a gradual descent? No, and they wouldn't worry if they did. It's a level change, yeah? Buy the time they did, too late..
JuniorD was pointing out to you that a hostile might break the suicidal behaviour simply by her presence. His example is that the bloke waited until the captain had left. As he pointed out, perhaps having another person there (who can't do anything) might modify the behaviour of someone.

JuniorD

8,616 posts

222 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
quotequote all
Hainey said:
Sorry, but I have to disagree.

First, he was never going to do it at a tram stop. This is a guy on record with telling his girlfriend he was 'going to be famous, the world would know his name' but he wouldn't say how.

Secondly, the Captain would have spotted it a mile off. Thats why you fly two crew. Pilot flying, pilot monitoring. So it would never happen with the skip in the left hand seat beside him.
Of course he could have effected a catastrophe of some type with the skip beside him.

Hainey said:
Back to the 'hostie in the flight deck would prevent it point.' Well, say your in clag. No vis. Or it's night and hardly any visual clues. Would they notice if you bugged for a gradual descent? No, and they wouldn't worry if they did. It's a level change, yeah? Buy the time they did, too late..
I didn't say a hostie would prevent it in the way you suggest. What I was saying is that if he was hellbent on destroying the aircraft somehow, no one could have stopped him if he was determined. But, if he required to be alone before he could do it, then breaking that chain with someone up there would have interrupted the plan.

Plus, while a "hostie" might not notice or understand why he set a descent, they would have been able to open the door to teh captain, or in the worst case leave some evidence on the CVR.

Hainey

4,381 posts

199 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
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Dr Jekyll said:
Hainey said:
Back to the 'hostie in the flight deck would prevent it point.' Well, say your in clag. No vis. Or it's night and hardly any visual clues. Would they notice if you bugged for a gradual descent? No, and they wouldn't worry if they did. It's a level change, yeah? Buy the time they did, too late..
It wouldn't be foolproof but at least when the other pilot started banging on the door they'd realise something was up.

Of course once a hostie went postal and tried to crash the aircraft all the rules would be changed again.
So you don't do a subtle level change, you shove it nose down and rip the wings off. Thrust levers to N1 max and nose down, it's literally seconds before you're in a bad place you're not getting back from while terrified hostie is pinned to their seat.

However you want to write the scenario, the sad fact is, if you want to do it, you'll find a way. Instead of looking at a way to stop the situation when it's already in motion, lets prevent it from happening by doing root cause and change the way mental illness is viewed. That would give us more benefit than putting trying to fight a migrane with a paracetamol.

trashbat

6,005 posts

152 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
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richardxjr said:
The C4 thing last night was quite interesting. They had a retied pilot on there who every flight for 18 months had to fight himself mentally into not causing oblivion by hitting the fuel cut off switches. Which he could do in 1 second regardless of anyone else being in the cockpit or not. He was convinced he would do it the next flight before he thankfully forced himself to retire.

Some madness that took over his life over such a long time yet could not speak to anyone else about it.
In psychological terms, this is called 'intrusive thoughts', which everyone has to some extent, but which can inflate into anxiety disorders or all kinds of other issues. The chances of such a person ever acting on these kind of thoughts is usually very low, but can cause them huge distress nonetheless. Cognitive behavioural therapy is available to deal with it. I'm not a psychologist but the OH is and treats patients for this regularly.

Someone linked to an ex-Qantas pilot's site - maybe the same guy - and it sounds like he suffered from the same, but of course I'm in no place to diagnose.

Hainey

4,381 posts

199 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
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el stovey said:
Hainey said:
Back to the 'hostie in the flight deck would prevent it point.' Well, say your in clag. No vis. Or it's night and hardly any visual clues. Would they notice if you bugged for a gradual descent? No, and they wouldn't worry if they did. It's a level change, yeah? Buy the time they did, too late..
JuniorD was pointing out to you that a hostile might break the suicidal behaviour simply by her presence. His example is that the bloke waited until the captain had left. As he pointed out, perhaps having another person there (who can't do anything) might modify the behaviour of someone.
Perhaps, but you and I know we'll never know that answer so it's subjective at best. I have known people with mental illness and the unpredictability of it when left untreated is horrifying to see. You use the word 'might' in your post, and I actually agree with your point, the one I'm making is nothing is foolproof and clever people find a way. I think this guy may have been one of those who would.

He had an easy route to his goal so he took it. Maybe he would have managed to complete a more difficult option as well frown