Germanwings A320 crashed in France :(
Discussion
rhinochopig said:
Perhaps because the vast majority of suicides do not include the premeditated murder of over a hundred innocents. Even a school shooting is typically precipitated by the treatment of the shooter by their peers.
There is no evidence it's premeditated. The bloke could have sufferd a psychotic episode. It could have been his first such episode and he could have been totally delusional. With so little evidence other than an opinion of a prosecutor that theory is just as valid as a premeditated plan to crash the plane. Arguably it's far more likely.
Oakey said:
AreOut on PPRUNE said:
any psychologists here, why is it that we now have several pilot suicides with many pax killed yet I have never heard of a bus driver doing a suicide and killing the passengers along the way?
Is.. is the answer because buses don't do 400mph+ and take forever to get up to speed whilst being operated in areas that are heavy in traffic?superkartracer said:
el stovey said:
LittleEnus said:
Exactly. Commercial pilots are pretty much just that, there is a bit of excitement on take off and again on landing and that's it.
My dad was a pilot all his life for the RAF and then Laker's, then SIA. It was his statement.
So many people regard pilots as if it were the 1950's still- oh he's a pilot. So what? imo its akin to tube/ train/ bus/coach/HGV/ forklift drivers. Albeit with varying levels of training required.
Your dad is playing down his old career and you're using his statement to put down his profession on the Internet. My dad was a pilot all his life for the RAF and then Laker's, then SIA. It was his statement.
So many people regard pilots as if it were the 1950's still- oh he's a pilot. So what? imo its akin to tube/ train/ bus/coach/HGV/ forklift drivers. Albeit with varying levels of training required.
What do you do for a living?
What a fool.
kpot statement MitchT said:
How do they know whose voice is which unless the pilots address each other by name in such a way as to indicate who is leaving the cockpit? Nothing to this effect has been mentioned in any of the reports. Also, how does the CVR provide data indicating which seat has been vacated? The FDR may but we don't have that yet.
These guys are professionals so I'm going to go out on a limb and hazard a guess that someone has identified the voices?Also, we don't know what the Mirage pilot saw, it's possible he identified who was in the cockpit at the time.
I was told by a BA Pilot several decades ago, that his job consisted of "Monitoring a computer as it navigates across continents".
Boring though the daily routine might be, do you really want a glorified bus driver in the pointy bit up front when the solids hit the fan? How about a 4-engine flameout due to volcanic ash? A 120 mile glide into Madeira? or a quick 180 over radar-less central Africa when faced with a wall of CBs?
Pilots train for complex situations and operate complex machinery. I respect them for that and I'm glad that they are there when things take a turn for the worst.
Boring though the daily routine might be, do you really want a glorified bus driver in the pointy bit up front when the solids hit the fan? How about a 4-engine flameout due to volcanic ash? A 120 mile glide into Madeira? or a quick 180 over radar-less central Africa when faced with a wall of CBs?
Pilots train for complex situations and operate complex machinery. I respect them for that and I'm glad that they are there when things take a turn for the worst.
Can I just take this time to say I've lurked on this topic for nearly 50 pages and I've been impressed with how sensitive and mature the vast majority of posters have been. It's a shame it takes a topic like this for it to happen, but I just thought I'd point it out.
Regarding the suicide doubts, I must say I will admit I do have my doubts too. I am not writing it off and I don't think anyone is particularly saying that, but I genuinely believe the full truth won't ever be realised, or told.
Three points that stand out for me, the first being down purely to my ignorance of air craft of this type.
1) Is there no means of communicating, or sending an alert to the ATC, or anyone else, from outside the cockpit?
2) The comments on the controlled breathing. I don't know about anyone else, but I reckon I can spot someone who is behaving...abnormal. I don't think those who are about to do something like this, have 'normal breathing'. Something for me, in my life experiences doesn't tally up.
3) The other is, as others have said, the gradual decline. Some experience fliers on this topic are suggesting, unless you are acutely tuned in, or have clear visibility you wouldn't be aware that you're descending. What puts me off flying the most, is the disorientation. You think you're flying level and you look out of a window and you're staring into space...the opposite side is the ground! That switch that gets flicked in your brain to level your senses really stresses me out. Therefore, I can only imagine that if someone was in a suicidal state and they wanted to take everyone with them, they wouldn't be calm, they wouldn't be in control, they wouldn't have been able to calmly creep the vessle into a mountain 30,000ft below where they were currently flying.
I am not writing it off, of course, but those 3 doubts combined with the implications a plane failure would have on their company have me rolling out the tin-foil into an average human head shape.
But above all, I feel so sorry for those who have lost their loved ones and I just really hope that everyone was at peace with each other.
RIP all involved.
Regarding the suicide doubts, I must say I will admit I do have my doubts too. I am not writing it off and I don't think anyone is particularly saying that, but I genuinely believe the full truth won't ever be realised, or told.
Three points that stand out for me, the first being down purely to my ignorance of air craft of this type.
1) Is there no means of communicating, or sending an alert to the ATC, or anyone else, from outside the cockpit?
2) The comments on the controlled breathing. I don't know about anyone else, but I reckon I can spot someone who is behaving...abnormal. I don't think those who are about to do something like this, have 'normal breathing'. Something for me, in my life experiences doesn't tally up.
3) The other is, as others have said, the gradual decline. Some experience fliers on this topic are suggesting, unless you are acutely tuned in, or have clear visibility you wouldn't be aware that you're descending. What puts me off flying the most, is the disorientation. You think you're flying level and you look out of a window and you're staring into space...the opposite side is the ground! That switch that gets flicked in your brain to level your senses really stresses me out. Therefore, I can only imagine that if someone was in a suicidal state and they wanted to take everyone with them, they wouldn't be calm, they wouldn't be in control, they wouldn't have been able to calmly creep the vessle into a mountain 30,000ft below where they were currently flying.
I am not writing it off, of course, but those 3 doubts combined with the implications a plane failure would have on their company have me rolling out the tin-foil into an average human head shape.
But above all, I feel so sorry for those who have lost their loved ones and I just really hope that everyone was at peace with each other.
RIP all involved.
LittleEnus said:
Commercial pilots are pretty much just that, there is a bit of excitement on take off and again on landing and that's it.
I've co-owned aerobatic aeroplanes with ATPLs for over a decade now.They try very, very hard to make sure that the amount of excitement in the day job is as close to zero as possible, because that's what they're paid to do - if things are getting exciting at the front, then chances are the folk at the back are going to be absolutely terrified. The satisfaction comes from absolutely nailing the safe operation of the aircraft regardless of the conditions or operational stresses.
Thrills are to be had on the days off in the Yak, Nanchang, Sukhoi, Pitts, Extra or Spitfire - or even some ancient bag of bolts and string - because fundamentally they just love flying.
I can see, though, that if you lack that basic, energetic passion for aviation then looking at the lifestyle of a junior ATPL in a budget airline you would ask yourself why they would do it.
MitchT said:
How do they know whose voice is which unless the pilots address each other by name in such a way as to indicate who is leaving the cockpit? Nothing to this effect has been mentioned in any of the reports. Also, how does the CVR provide data indicating which seat has been vacated? The FDR may but we don't have that yet.
Presumably they got work colleagues to independently identify the voices. I could tell most of mine simply by ear.SpeedMattersNot said:
Can I just take this time to say I've lurked on this topic for nearly 50 pages and I've been impressed with how sensitive and mature the vast majority of posters have been. It's a shame it takes a topic like this for it to happen, but I just thought I'd point it out.
Regarding the suicide doubts, I must say I will admit I do have my doubts too. I am not writing it off and I don't think anyone is particularly saying that, but I genuinely believe the full truth won't ever be realised, or told.
Three points that stand out for me, the first being down purely to my ignorance of air craft of this type.
1) Is there no means of communicating, or sending an alert to the ATC, or anyone else, from outside the cockpit?
2) The comments on the controlled breathing. I don't know about anyone else, but I reckon I can spot someone who is behaving...abnormal. I don't think those who are about to do something like this, have 'normal breathing'. Something for me, in my life experiences doesn't tally up.
3) The other is, as others have said, the gradual decline. Some experience fliers on this topic are suggesting, unless you are acutely tuned in, or have clear visibility you wouldn't be aware that you're descending. What puts me off flying the most, is the disorientation. You think you're flying level and you look out of a window and you're staring into space...the opposite side is the ground! That switch that gets flicked in your brain to level your senses really stresses me out. Therefore, I can only imagine that if someone was in a suicidal state and they wanted to take everyone with them, they wouldn't be calm, they wouldn't be in control, they wouldn't have been able to calmly creep the vessle into a mountain 30,000ft below where they were currently flying.
I am not writing it off, of course, but those 3 doubts combined with the implications a plane failure would have on their company have me rolling out the tin-foil into an average human head shape.
But above all, I feel so sorry for those who have lost their loved ones and I just really hope that everyone was at peace with each other.
RIP all involved.
Remember the guy that was going bankrupt and murdered his family? Shot his wife, his daughter, the dogs, the horses, then proceeded to block the front gate with a horse box before trailing fuel hoses into the property and garage and setting fire to everything before going back inside and turning the gun on himself. Was all on CCTV and he look to be calm and collected whilst doing it.Regarding the suicide doubts, I must say I will admit I do have my doubts too. I am not writing it off and I don't think anyone is particularly saying that, but I genuinely believe the full truth won't ever be realised, or told.
Three points that stand out for me, the first being down purely to my ignorance of air craft of this type.
1) Is there no means of communicating, or sending an alert to the ATC, or anyone else, from outside the cockpit?
2) The comments on the controlled breathing. I don't know about anyone else, but I reckon I can spot someone who is behaving...abnormal. I don't think those who are about to do something like this, have 'normal breathing'. Something for me, in my life experiences doesn't tally up.
3) The other is, as others have said, the gradual decline. Some experience fliers on this topic are suggesting, unless you are acutely tuned in, or have clear visibility you wouldn't be aware that you're descending. What puts me off flying the most, is the disorientation. You think you're flying level and you look out of a window and you're staring into space...the opposite side is the ground! That switch that gets flicked in your brain to level your senses really stresses me out. Therefore, I can only imagine that if someone was in a suicidal state and they wanted to take everyone with them, they wouldn't be calm, they wouldn't be in control, they wouldn't have been able to calmly creep the vessle into a mountain 30,000ft below where they were currently flying.
I am not writing it off, of course, but those 3 doubts combined with the implications a plane failure would have on their company have me rolling out the tin-foil into an average human head shape.
But above all, I feel so sorry for those who have lost their loved ones and I just really hope that everyone was at peace with each other.
RIP all involved.
-Z- said:
Bonin was pulling back the whole time without Robert being aware. With Boeing's control yokes working like dual controls in a learner car, it would have been abundantly obvious to the other pilot that a nose up attitude was being consistently commanded. Unfortunately with an Airbus there is no feedback link from one pilots stick to the other!
Slightly o/t but actually there are different types of dual control in a learner car, sometimes they are coupled and some are one-way coupled (i.e. the driver's brake doesn't pull the instructor's pedal down but vice versa it does).Edited by -Z- on Wednesday 25th March 23:26
At least now I know to call them "Airbus" or "Boeing" dual controls.
NinjaPower said:
Silver993tt said:
I really don't see the facination with being a commercial pilot. It's a hugely regulated industry, spending hours in a tiny capsule called a cockpit and spending hours again at airports which really are places to I want to avoid.
I concure completely.I cannot see the appeal at all.
And the onslaught of cattle class budget airlines over the years has vastly diminished the 'prestige' of being an airline pilot
My Mums friend is a long haul stewardess with British Airways and has been for over 25 years, and she was saying much the same. That air travel is no longer what it was. People used to see it as a luxury and prestigious form of travel, and dress up to go to the airport. Now it's just hoards of tracksuit wearing slobs heading for Malaga on a ticket they paid £39 for.
I used to look forward to going on a plane, a bit of an adventure once a year.
Now, I holiday in the UK, as the thought of being stuck in an airport for two hours, treated like a potential terrorist going through security, and sat next to some big fat munter, munching through six packets of crisps doesn't appeal.
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