UKIP - The Future - Volume 4

[wc98]

mrpurple said:

This one?

"Suzy Howlett does not appear on the national registrar of the teaching council as can be found out with the following link. http://tinyurl.com/nd2csgg One of her friends on her face book page however is FROME's mayor Councillor Peter Macfadyen...."

Read more: http://www.bathchronicle.co.uk/UKIP-councillor-Fro...

yep ,it is all very strange. will be interesting to see how the police deal with the complaint.

[wc98]

cookie118 said:

It's a pretty large core vote-whether they can convert it into seats is anyone's guess, at the moment it looks like certainly some. Even if they don't win many seats I'd imagine that they could swing the result of the GE due to grabbing votes from the main two parties.

As much as I don't like them they make compelling arguments in many sectors and are growing as a political force, taking votes from both labour and the conservatives and transforming from a minor party to a major player. They have their issues as any party does (which have been reducing in the run up to the GE) but they have to be taken seriously, and cannot be dismissed off-hand as a minor party.

that seems a reasonable assessment . i think people tend to forget the only measure of success for ukip is against their last general election performance . on that basis they are only going one way,and let,s be honest about it, the issues that have brought them to the fore are only going to get bigger in the next parliament.

[Mrr T]

Scuffers said:

BGARK said:

Out of curiosity, where have most of the skilled Brits gone?

good question

the truth is we have no idea as without exit controls we just don't know.

Anecdotally, lot of medical staff have gone to Aus/Gulf/US etc.

I love it. The new kipper plan is to have controls on British passport holders leaving the UK?

[Mrr T]

Guam said:

Mrr T said:

I love it. The new kipper plan is to have controls on British passport holders leaving the UK?

Actually its a Tory plan as can be evidenced by the queues at Dover these days

Well except I asked about:

Scuffers said:

the truth is we have no idea as without exit controls we just don't know.

And you replied about passport checks.

Just checking passports is not an exit control and gathers no data about where people are going.

So let me ask again is UKIP planning exit controls?

I do think the new passport controls on exit are stupid.

[Scuffers]

WTF are you on about?

Checking passports at ports is basic stuff.

People emigrating is a different subject, the two have little to do with each other.

It's the same bullst argument from those that can't understand the difference between immigrants and visitors

[TKF]

[Scuffers]

Very good, but it's still very much guesswork...

Does show eu is nothing like the majority.

[Scuffers]

OK, now in front of a PC..

Passport control:



is that such a difficult concept to understand?

the pedantry in these thread is just stunning sometimes....

(it's almost like some people are deliberately being stupid/argumentative just for the sake of it!)

[anonymous-user]

Scuffers said:

BGARK said:

Out of curiosity, where have most of the skilled Brits gone?

good question

the truth is we have no idea as without exit controls we just don't know.

Anecdotally, lot of medical staff have gone to Aus/Gulf/US etc.

You mean "data collection from emigrating British nationals".

"Exit controls" means controls on the ability to leave the country (you may or may not leave, with or without conditions) irrespective of intention to return.

"Passport control" is what we have upon entering the country, applicable to all entrants. It has nothing to do with the destination of leavers, so it's not clear why you raised it.

Passport checks on exit are to collect data on whether and when people leave the UK. They are not checks or where they are going, or for how long.

[Scuffers]

why do you have to make such a meal of this?

it;s perfectly clear what I was getting at, getting into semantics is silly.

unless you know who is coming and going, how do you propose we have any real statistics?

Passport control is the sign above the door, ie, where it would be a good idea to log people in and out, it does not mean I am suggesting we stop people leaving, just log them with some basic details about where they are heading (most of which could be gained from the carriers ticketing systems)

People leaving the country as in emigrating, should be required to fill in some basic data, ie, where they are going etc etc.

it's really not hard is it? and takes all the guesswork out.

combine this with a proper census, (ie. one where you actually capture *everybody* in the data, and hey presto, we have some real data to use when making plans for services etc.

[anonymous-user]

Scuffers said:

why do you have to make such a meal of this?

it;s perfectly clear what I was getting at, getting into semantics is silly.

<snip>

it's really not hard is it? and takes all the guesswork out.

<snip>

It's not making a meal of it, nor is it semantics; it's making sense of what you write - a necessary task because despite you knowing what you're trying to say, you don't express those thoughts at all clearly. Which makes life harder for your readership that it should be, and introduces guesswork where none should be necessary.

You're welcome.

[Mrr T]

Scuffers said:

People leaving the country as in emigrating, should be required to fill in some basic data, ie, where they are going etc etc.

How do you know if they are emigrating?

What do you do if they refuse to answer the questions? Stop them going?

[Scuffers]

Mrr T said:

Scuffers said:

People leaving the country as in emigrating, should be required to fill in some basic data, ie, where they are going etc etc.

How do you know if they are emigrating?

What do you do if they refuse to answer the questions? Stop them going?

FFS you're a funny guy!

if somebody is emigrating, it's not a 5 minute decision, they will have stuff to deal with, asking them if they are emigrating is hardly challenging stuff!

and why would anybody refuse to tell you?

[FiF]

Seeing as there are so many supposedly smart people on the thread playing rather tiresome word games in order to win the Internet I'd like to ask a simple question or three.

If someone is admitted to the country on a temporary visa, finite duration for whatever reason, how do we know when they've left?

If someone enters the country without a visa due to reciprocal or other arrangements with their country, how do we know they are here and when they have left or not?

Should we know this information or does it not matter in the slightest?

Civil constructive answers only please.

[Scuffers]

exactly

you have hit the nail on the head, we can;t unless we have real border controls.

[anonymous-user]

FiF said:

Seeing as there are so many supposedly smart people on the thread playing rather tiresome word games in order to win the Internet I'd like to ask a simple question or three.

If someone is admitted to the country on a temporary visa, finite duration for whatever reason, how do we know when they've left?

If someone enters the country without a visa due to reciprocal or other arrangements with their country, how do we know they are here and when they have left or not?

Should we know this information or does it not matter in the slightest?

Civil constructive answers only please.

Let's start with question 3. What are "we" (I assume you mean HMG rather than the population in general) going to do with this information?

Assume you have the information from Q1 and Q2. You know that (say) 50,000 people are overstaying their visas and another 50,000 have arrived not needing a visa and haven't left.

The first group are AIUI, committing a criminal offence. HMG wants to deport them. Knowing how many are here doesn't tell you where they are in the UK for the purpose of tracking them down. So you have information that identifies the size of a problem that you don't have the means to solve. I'd say having the information therefore doesn't matter, in that it's not information that is of use to solve the problem.

The second group may be here lawfully. Let's assume they are. They might leave in the future; they might not. Again, you don't know where they are so to the extent that they are putting pressure on infrastructure, you have no idea to which parts of the country (if any) you need to divert additional resources. This information might give you micro snapshots of net population growth but as HMG does the census every ten (?) years, one might concludes that it doesn't consider micro snapshots to be of much use.

So, again, how does this information help HMG?

Ps: Scuffers, this is about monitoring movement of people in the country, not about monitoring entry into the country. You're off the point. Again.

[don4l]

Greg66 said:

Ps: Scuffers, this is about monitoring movement of people in the country, not about monitoring entry into the country. You're off the point. Again.

Strawman alert! You just made up the reasons why we might want to monitor who is leaving, and then you argued against yourself. Well, congratulations, you won.

This is actually about taking control of our borders back from the EU.

It is about finding a way to reduce immigration to the sort of levels that Cameron promised before the last election.

[don4l]

Good news!

ICM poll out today says that UKIP support is up 4% in the last week.

[anonymous-user]

don4l said:

Strawman alert! You just made up the reasons why we might want to monitor who is leaving, and then you argued against yourself. Well, congratulations, you won.

This is actually about taking control of our borders back from the EU.

It is about finding a way to reduce immigration to the sort of levels that Cameron promised before the last election.

You take back your borders to control who is entering. The question was about monitoring who is leaving.

I realise this is all quite complicated stuff though, with tricky words like "entering" and "leaving", which sound similar and can be confusing.

If you'd like to ask a different question which has nothing to do with counting people in or or out, but is directed at stopping free movement of people within the EU, feel free.

[Scuffers]

when you enter another country, most of them ask you several questions on their entry cards.

eg. Australia's




note the questions:

1) who are you?
2) how did you get here?
3) where are you planning on staying? (including contact details)
4) Are you planning on living here for the next 12 months?
5) Do you have TB?
6) are you a criminal?
7) how long are you planning on staying? (and are you migrating here?)
8) what is your occupation?
9) what nationality are you?

Now, they are far from alone, MOST countries have similar entry forms

then when you go to leave, you fill in another form:



once again, a few sensible questions.

it's not hard is it?

why are we not doing the same?