UKIP - The Future - Volume 4

[anonymous-user]

don4l said:

In that case you should stop worrying about the issue.

Or would you be bothered if UKIP did only win seat?

It will sadden me if UKIP win any seat, just as it saddens me that the Greens hold a seat.

I worry about the UKIP vote share opening the door to the unholy alliance of a Miliband/Balls government, supported by the SNP. I realise the whole "vote UKIP, get Labour" is decried here as a gross falsehood, but we shall see what UKIP's vote share is in the seats that Labour takes from the Conservatives on 7 May.

ETA: as I am not generally a fan of higher taxes and higher spending, and specifically very much opposed to yet higher taxes being imposed on me to fund spending on someone else's lifestyle, this is admittedly a very selfish concern. But, alas, I am not sufficiently altruistic to vote for a government that will help itself to tens of thousands of what, in my socially unreconstructed way, I consider to be my money.

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 20th April 17:52

[FiF]

Greg66 said:

FiF said:

Actually the question covered both entering and leaving, including the mechanism of how and if we (HMG) monitor individuals in and out, or not. The issue of internal movement once they are here is tangential to the questions asked, but a reasonable diversion considering the question of whether it mattered.

However the request for civil and constructive comment was steam rollered in a handful of posts, as usual.

Gives up.

Actually, the question was about monitoring departure. It was based on a premise of having entered, but contained no question about entry.

No doubt this unhelpful observation will be filed under "semantics".

Read the third paragraph of the question again. "How do we know they are here..."

HTH

No doubt this will be filed under pedantry. And you're the one making smart arse comments about people's understanding of English.

[Scuffers]

Greg66 said:

Oh yes, that's right. Because they are the ones who always can relied upon to tick the box next to the question on the landing card "Are you a criminal, terrorist, or in any other way undesirable?"

Idiot.

Nice...

I guess you think that most countries that have immigration cards are all idiots too then?

[TKF]

Scuffers said:

PRTVR said:

TKF said:

Scuffers just so that we're clear here do you want me to fill out a card every time I leave the country?

Yes like api when you fly, its not hard.

Yes, and another one when you come back.

250 million passengers filling out cards which then have to be logged. A brilliant idea.

[TKF]

Scuffers said:

Greg66 said:

Oh yes, that's right. Because they are the ones who always can relied upon to tick the box next to the question on the landing card "Are you a criminal, terrorist, or in any other way undesirable?"

Idiot.

Nice...

I guess you think that most countries that have immigration cards are all idiots too then?

I wonder whether Man Haron Monis ticked the box?

[rudecherub]

Greg66 said:

don4l said:

In that case you should stop worrying about the issue.

Or would you be bothered if UKIP did only win seat?

It will sadden me if UKIP win any seat, just as it saddens me that the Greens hold a seat.

I worry about the UKIP vote share opening the door to the unholy alliance of a Miliband/Balls government, supported by the SNP. I realise the whole "vote UKIP, get Labour" is decried here as a gross falsehood, but we shall see what UKIP's vote share is in the seats that Labour takes from the Conservatives on 7 May.

What's the worse that could happen, cut defense spending ( to allow for an EU army ) cut the police, give away billions in bribes called aid to foreign governments, while increasing the deficit faster in one parliament than Blair/Brown did in four, while most of our laws to be made by people unelected?

Sound familiar?

Seriously, I'm more scared of more of "say anything to get elected and stay elected" Dave, at least Ed is honest about not wanting to give the people a say over being absorbed into the EU state.

In the end Red Labour/Blue Labour are just the same party, bar the shouting, and penny change spending differences in relative terms given the size of the UK economy and our nearly 1.3 Trillion debt.

[anonymous-user]

FiF said:

Greg66 said:

FiF said:

Actually the question covered both entering and leaving, including the mechanism of how and if we (HMG) monitor individuals in and out, or not. The issue of internal movement once they are here is tangential to the questions asked, but a reasonable diversion considering the question of whether it mattered.

However the request for civil and constructive comment was steam rollered in a handful of posts, as usual.

Gives up.

Actually, the question was about monitoring departure. It was based on a premise of having entered, but contained no question about entry.

No doubt this unhelpful observation will be filed under "semantics".

Read the third paragraph of the question again. "How do we know they are here..."

HTH

No doubt this will be filed under pedantry. And you're the one making smart arse comments about people's understanding of English.

Ah - you're right. For non-EU entrants who don't require a visa, entry cards. For EU entrants, I don't know for sure, but at (eg) LHR all EU passport holders queue together and have their passports scanned. AIUI this is because we are outside Schengen, otherwise this would not happen everyone would wander in as if they had stepped off a domestic flight.

So where does that get you?

[Scuffers]

TKF said:

Scuffers said:

PRTVR said:

TKF said:

Scuffers just so that we're clear here do you want me to fill out a card every time I leave the country?

Yes like api when you fly, its not hard.

Yes, and another one when you come back.

250 million passengers filling out cards which then have to be logged. A brilliant idea.

Eh?

That's 5million a day?

Care to rethink that?

[anonymous-user]

Scuffers said:

Greg66 said:

Oh yes, that's right. Because they are the ones who always can relied upon to tick the box next to the question on the landing card "Are you a criminal, terrorist, or in any other way undesirable?"

Idiot.

Nice...

I guess you think that most countries that have immigration cards are all idiots too then?

Only the ones that think their entry cards are going to catch serious criminals and terrorists. Do you think there are any such countries?

[TKF]

Scuffers said:

TKF said:

Scuffers said:

PRTVR said:

TKF said:

Scuffers just so that we're clear here do you want me to fill out a card every time I leave the country?

Yes like api when you fly, its not hard.

Yes, and another one when you come back.

250 million passengers filling out cards which then have to be logged. A brilliant idea.

Eh?

That's 5million a day?

Care to rethink that?

Maths, yet again, isn't your strong point.

[NicD]

why a card?

There have been computers for a while, though not so easy for the Gov to efficiently utilise them.

We already have passports and boarding cards/images, so not so hard to integrate them.

[Scuffers]

Greg66 said:

Only the ones that think their entry cards are going to catch serious criminals and terrorists. Do you think there are any such countries?

excuse me but who said it would catch them? that's actually not why the question is there.

think about it.. (I know that may be hard for you!)

most countries require a visa, (for Aus it's free just need to apply online).

once you have done that they know to look out for your passport number/name/etc. they also will likely do a cursory check on your criminal record.

so, when you then turn up at the port, fill in the card saying NO to the question and they already know you have one, it's a simple matter of pulling you in as you have just committed an offence by lying on their immigration card, enough to deport you instantly.

do you think if you fly to the US, they don't have your life history before you get anywhere near their airspace?

[Scuffers]

TKF said:

Scuffers said:

TKF said:

Scuffers said:

PRTVR said:

TKF said:

Scuffers just so that we're clear here do you want me to fill out a card every time I leave the country?

Yes like api when you fly, its not hard.

Yes, and another one when you come back.

250 million passengers filling out cards which then have to be logged. A brilliant idea.

Eh?

That's 5million a day?

Care to rethink that?

Maths, yet again, isn't your strong point.

sorry, meant a week.

and no, we do not have 5M people a week entering the UK

[Axionknight]

He didn't say coming - that'll be coming and going.

[Scuffers]

Axionknight said:

He didn't say coming - that'll be coming and going.

OK, but consider the two biggest airports here add up to <110M a year (and that's probably exaggerating a little), the tunnel say 20M a year, so you're suggesting that the smaller airports and ships make up the remaining ~120M a year?

[FiF]

Greg66 said:

Ah - you're right. For non-EU entrants who don't require a visa, entry cards. For EU entrants, I don't know for sure, but at (eg) LHR all EU passport holders queue together and have their passports scanned. AIUI this is because we are outside Schengen, otherwise this would not happen everyone would wander in as if they had stepped off a domestic flight.

So where does that get you?

I think it gets me to the point where there are clearly opportunities for automated data collection on entry.

There are also opportunities on exit that may or may not be taken dependent on country and type of border. Some countries scan me in and out on top of the checks at security. Others much more variable, especially on exit.

Any system that can allow me to get through Harwich, for example, with no border check isn't fit for purpose, note I'm not talking customs but immigration.

But the point is what happens to all this data seeing as iBorders was such a raving success - not.

[don4l]

Greg66 said:

don4l said:

In that case you should stop worrying about the issue.

Or would you be bothered if UKIP did only win seat?

It will sadden me if UKIP win any seat, just as it saddens me that the Greens hold a seat.

I worry about the UKIP vote share opening the door to the unholy alliance of a Miliband/Balls government, supported by the SNP. I realise the whole "vote UKIP, get Labour" is decried here as a gross falsehood, but we shall see what UKIP's vote share is in the seats that Labour takes from the Conservatives on 7 May.

ETA: as I am not generally a fan of higher taxes and higher spending, and specifically very much opposed to yet higher taxes being imposed on me to fund spending on someone else's lifestyle, this is admittedly a very selfish concern. But, alas, I am not sufficiently altruistic to vote for a government that will help itself to tens of thousands of what, in my socially unreconstructed way, I consider to be my money.

Edited by Greg66 on Monday 20th April 17:52

Interesting answer.

I completely agree with you last paragraph.

The last Labour Government spent 13 years borrowing £411Bn, which is a discraceful figure.

Dave Cameron's government has borrowed £680Bn in just 5 years.

Perhaps we would be safer if Labour did win in 16 days?

[TKF]

Scuffers said:

we do not have 5M people a week entering the UK

At your insistence we're discussing exit and entry. Air traffic alone accounts for over 200m passengers passing through our airports.

You want the government to ask each of them to fill out a card for each journey and for what end? As discussed the terrorists won't tick the bomber box.

[s2art]

Scuffers said:

Axionknight said:

He didn't say coming - that'll be coming and going.

OK, but consider the two biggest airports here add up to <110M a year (and that's probably exaggerating a little), the tunnel say 20M a year, so you're suggesting that the smaller airports and ships make up the remaining ~120M a year?

Heathrow alone gets approx 200,000 arrivals and departures per day.

[NicD]

TKF said:

Scuffers said:

we do not have 5M people a week entering the UK

At your insistence we're discussing exit and entry. Air traffic alone accounts for over 200m passengers passing through our airports.

You want the government to ask each of them to fill out a card for each journey and for what end? As discussed the terrorists won't tick the bomber box.

200m arriving/leaving the UK?