UKIP - The Future - Volume 4

Author
Discussion

don4l

10,058 posts

175 months

Monday 20th April 2015
quotequote all
TKF said:
At your insistence we're discussing exit and entry. Air traffic alone accounts for over 200m passengers passing through our airports.

You want the government to ask each of them to fill out a card for each journey and for what end? As discussed the terrorists won't tick the bomber box.
All this talk of entry and exit is silly.

The points of exit have passport scanning facilities, which are currently used at times of heightened security. If we use these, then there is little more to do than let the computers do a little arithmetic.

UKIP, have allowed for an extra 2000+ border staff in their fully costed manifesto, so this looks feasible.




mrpurple

2,624 posts

187 months

Monday 20th April 2015
quotequote all
Mandatory implanted microchips could be the answer biggrinbiggrinbiggrin

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Monday 20th April 2015
quotequote all
s2art said:
Scuffers said:
Axionknight said:
He didn't say coming - that'll be coming and going.
OK, but consider the two biggest airports here add up to <110M a year (and that's probably exaggerating a little), the tunnel say 20M a year, so you're suggesting that the smaller airports and ships make up the remaining ~120M a year?
Heathrow alone gets approx 200,000 arrivals and departures per day.
73m a year, gatwick another 37m

Hence my figure of 110m above

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 20th April 2015
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Scuffers said:
Greg66 said:
Only the ones that think their entry cards are going to catch serious criminals and terrorists. Do you think there are any such countries?
excuse me but who said it would catch them? that's actually not why the question is there.

think about it.. (I know that may be hard for you!)

most countries require a visa, (for Aus it's free just need to apply online).

once you have done that they know to look out for your passport number/name/etc. they also will likely do a cursory check on your criminal record.

so, when you then turn up at the port, fill in the card saying NO to the question and they already know you have one, it's a simple matter of pulling you in as you have just committed an offence by lying on their immigration card, enough to deport you instantly.

do you think if you fly to the US, they don't have your life history before you get anywhere near their airspace?
"Think about it". The irony.

You think it is likely that foreign governments do cursory criminal record checks on incoming visitors. And that the US has "your life history" on file.

Let's stick to the US to keep it simple. Any idea how many people enter the US a day?

Over a million. That's over a million checks. Every day. And who holds the records? The foreign countries. So you think the US has all the other governments around the world, like the UK, Germany, Russia, Iran, Syria, Yeman, all doing criminal record checks for it.

But not just that - so are loads of other countries. Including ours. Literally tens if not hundreds of millions of criminal records checks going on all over world every day as a incident of international travel.

And you, having thought about it, think this is "likely". Incredible.

PRTVR

7,072 posts

220 months

Monday 20th April 2015
quotequote all
TKF said:
Scuffers said:
we do not have 5M people a week entering the UK
At your insistence we're discussing exit and entry. Air traffic alone accounts for over 200m passengers passing through our airports.

You want the government to ask each of them to fill out a card for each journey and for what end? As discussed the terrorists won't tick the bomber box.
I struggle to see why you find it a problem, when I visited the USA I filled in a form, why do you think it would it should not be implemented in the UK, without it as Suffers says we have not any accurate data of who is here.
Edit to add there is an advantage to not having the data as the government is not held to account over them.


Edited by PRTVR on Monday 20th April 19:12

Axionknight

8,505 posts

134 months

Monday 20th April 2015
quotequote all
don4l said:
Interesting answer.

I completely agree with you last paragraph.

The last Labour Government spent 13 years borrowing £411Bn, which is a discraceful figure.

Dave Cameron's government has borrowed £680Bn in just 5 years.

Perhaps we would be safer if Labour did win in 16 days?
You can't turn the taps off on 168 billion a year borrowing overnight y'know...... Although I do think the deficit could have been dealt with in a different (and in my view) better way.

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Monday 20th April 2015
quotequote all
Greg66 said:
"Think about it". The irony.

You think it is likely that foreign governments do cursory criminal record checks on incoming visitors. And that the US has "your life history" on file.

Let's stick to the US to keep it simple. Any idea how many people enter the US a day?

Over a million. That's over a million checks. Every day. And who holds the records? The foreign countries. So you think the US has all the other governments around the world, like the UK, Germany, Russia, Iran, Syria, Yeman, all doing criminal record checks for it.

But not just that - so are loads of other countries. Including ours. Literally tens if not hundreds of millions of criminal records checks going on all over world every day as a incident of international travel.

And you, having thought about it, think this is "likely". Incredible.
Us check every passenger heading for us airspace.

If you arrive and have a criminal conviction undeclared, they will turn you round.

Happens every day.

TKF

6,232 posts

234 months

Monday 20th April 2015
quotequote all
don4l said:
UKIP, have allowed for an extra 2000+ border staff in their fully costed manifesto, so this looks feasible.
That's lucky because they'll have 100+ cards to check and log daily under Scuffers' brilliant new plans. Thankfully even UKIP aren't thick enough to suggest it.

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 20th April 2015
quotequote all
FiF said:
I think it gets me to the point where there are clearly opportunities for automated data collection on entry.

There are also opportunities on exit that may or may not be taken dependent on country and type of border. Some countries scan me in and out on top of the checks at security. Others much more variable, especially on exit.

Any system that can allow me to get through Harwich, for example, with no border check isn't fit for purpose, note I'm not talking customs but immigration.

But the point is what happens to all this data seeing as iBorders was such a raving success - not.
Is there not automated data collection on entry - actual, not opportunity? My experience extends to airports and Dover (ferries and tunnel) and I am pretty sure that at all of them, on entry, I hand my passport over to a man in a booth or desk who scans my passport and looks me in the eye.

Are you saying that at Harwich that isn't done?

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 20th April 2015
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
Us check every passenger heading for us airspace.

If you arrive and have a criminal conviction undeclared, they will turn you round.

Happens every day.
From: http://www.nacro.org.uk/resettlement-advice-servic...

"The US authorities do not have access to criminal record information held on the Police National Computer. This is why you are asked to declare your record and provide a copy of your police certificate for the visa application, if you are not eligible to travel under the VWP. However, if the authorities have particular concerns about an individual, they may request criminal record information from the Home Office by making an application through Interpol. This rarely happens."

Next.

FredClogs

14,041 posts

160 months

Monday 20th April 2015
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
TKF said:
Scuffers said:
TKF said:
Scuffers said:
PRTVR said:
TKF said:
Scuffers just so that we're clear here do you want me to fill out a card every time I leave the country?
Yes like api when you fly, its not hard.
Yes, and another one when you come back.
250 million passengers filling out cards which then have to be logged. A brilliant idea.
Eh?

That's 5million a day?

Care to rethink that?
Maths, yet again, isn't your strong point.
sorry, meant a week.

and no, we do not have 5M people a week entering the UK
heathrow alone (although to be fair it's a decent chunk) turns over 73.4million people a year, 201,000 a day leaving and arriving.

http://www.heathrowairport.com/about-us/company-ne...

As you'll appreciate if you've ever been there in August. They come because we're a great nation built on trade and movement of people, labour and capital. Farage claims himself to be a man of the world, experience and (more importantly) business, yet he wishes to restrict the free movement of labour, the very corner stone of what makes commerce, trade and money work - People.

DJRC

23,563 posts

235 months

Monday 20th April 2015
quotequote all
Timsta said:
DJRC said:
And to be fair we don't really give a fk about the exit controls in the countries we go to either.
Don't we? Oh. OK.
No we aren't. Of course I'm sure you are, being terribly polite Middle English and obeying the rules etc. The majority of folks I've known working in various countries however have turned up, taken the money and fked off when they were done.

PRTVR

7,072 posts

220 months

Monday 20th April 2015
quotequote all
FredClogs said:
heathrow alone (although to be fair it's a decent chunk) turns over 73.4million people a year, 201,000 a day leaving and arriving.

http://www.heathrowairport.com/about-us/company-ne...

As you'll appreciate if you've ever been there in August. They come because we're a great nation built on trade and movement of people, labour and capital. Farage claims himself to be a man of the world, experience and (more importantly) business, yet he wishes to restrict the free movement of labour, the very corner stone of what makes commerce, trade and money work - People.
Why do the two things have to go hand in hand? America controls immigration but is still a major trading nation.
Edit to fix nesting


Edited by PRTVR on Monday 20th April 20:16

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 20th April 2015
quotequote all
don4l said:
Interesting answer.

I completely agree with you last paragraph.

The last Labour Government spent 13 years borrowing £411Bn, which is a discraceful figure.

Dave Cameron's government has borrowed £680Bn in just 5 years.

Perhaps we would be safer if Labour did win in 16 days?
I don't think that would be the answer to my prayers.

Govt borrowing figures: http://www.parliament.uk/Templates/BriefingPapers/...

It appears - at least at a very superficial look - that two things emerge from these figures. First, Govt borrowing rocketed after 2008 and hasn't come down appreciably since then. Secondly, borrowing seems to rely - at least initially - on what the previous administration was up to. Hence the early Blair years look very good, perhaps because they inherited a very strong economic position from Major. And in 2010 (which was said by some to be the election that no one wanted to win) the coalition inherited the financial crisis fall out.

Now I'd like Govt borrowing to drop like a stone as it's another expense for the state and ultimately its citizens. But I'm not really persuaded that a Labour Govt would have borrowed less over the last five years than the coalition has; and more to the (selfish) point, if I have a choice of two Govts both of which will borrow, I'll take the one that doesn't tax the arse out of me as part of its program.

BTW, have you noticed the newish synonym on the block? "Progressive". A synonym for "deeply socialist". Who'd've thought it?

don4l

10,058 posts

175 months

Monday 20th April 2015
quotequote all
Axionknight said:
don4l said:
Interesting answer.

I completely agree with you last paragraph.

The last Labour Government spent 13 years borrowing £411Bn, which is a discraceful figure.

Dave Cameron's government has borrowed £680Bn in just 5 years.

Perhaps we would be safer if Labour did win in 16 days?
You can't turn the taps off on 168 billion a year borrowing overnight y'know...... Although I do think the deficit could have been dealt with in a different (and in my view) better way.
Foreign aid budget??

Cameron is spending "other people's money" faster than anyone in history.

My kids, who are in their twenties, will spend all of their working lives paying off the interest and capital.

The interest is already costing £50Bn a year, and rising by £4Bn per annum.

We seem to live in a society where the disadvantaged need the state to provide them with a house that is bigger than they need. If someone cannot have a spare bedroom, we let them get away with using the term "bedroom tax".

Giving someone a bedroom that they don't need is a bedroom "subsidy". In fact, giving them a bedroom that they do need is also a bedroom subsidy.

NicD

3,281 posts

256 months

Monday 20th April 2015
quotequote all
'About 1.2million Poles want to leave the country and move abroad in the next 12 months and almost one in four hope to land in Britain, a study by the Polish employment service found.

The staggering figures prompted concern in the UK - which is already home to nearly 800,000 of the eastern Europeans. '
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/571575/Polish-...

No problem, immigrants are 'good' for the economy.

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Monday 20th April 2015
quotequote all
Greg66 said:
Scuffers said:
Us check every passenger heading for us airspace.

If you arrive and have a criminal conviction undeclared, they will turn you round.

Happens every day.
From: http://www.nacro.org.uk/resettlement-advice-servic...

"The US authorities do not have access to criminal record information held on the Police National Computer. This is why you are asked to declare your record and provide a copy of your police certificate for the visa application, if you are not eligible to travel under the VWP. However, if the authorities have particular concerns about an individual, they may request criminal record information from the Home Office by making an application through Interpol. This rarely happens."

Next.
Simply don't believe that for a second.

Seen people turned round from us airports...

DJRC

23,563 posts

235 months

Monday 20th April 2015
quotequote all
One of the great advantages of working within the EU is ease of movement. Not having to dick about with filling in forms and crap. To those of you who only grockle travel that probably means nothing to you. Those of us who spend half our lives in airports and on planes live to minimise the entire process, not add to it.

Freedom of travel as an individual is also frankly vastly more important than any nation, inc my own knowing anymore about what Im doing and where. Govts should have as little information as possible.

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 20th April 2015
quotequote all
NicD said:
immigrants are 'good' for the economy.
Isn't that a rather facile generalisation?

Immigrants who settle, work hard and pay their taxes are good for any economy. Suggesting that immigrants are inherently a bad thing isn't much different to saying that blacks, or Jews, or women are 'good' for the economy.

America was built on immigration. And didn't you emigrate to the UK from abroad? Would you say you were 'good' for the UK economy or not? Ditto don4l, who came here (I think) from Ireland and runs his own business (very successfully, judging from his garage).

don4l

10,058 posts

175 months

Monday 20th April 2015
quotequote all
TKF said:
don4l said:
UKIP, have allowed for an extra 2000+ border staff in their fully costed manifesto, so this looks feasible.
That's lucky because they'll have 100+ cards to check and log daily under Scuffers' brilliant new plans. Thankfully even UKIP aren't thick enough to suggest it.
This thread is about UKIP, and the future. If you want to have an argument with scuffers, then I suggest that you take it elsewhere.

If you simply want to prove to the internet that you are intellectually superior to scuffers, then you will fail on two counts.

Harrasment is frowned upon on Pistonheads. You will get yourself banned if you continue on this course.

Also, by pretending that you didn't understand that scuffers meant "checks" when he used the word "controls", you simply show yourself to be a bit hard of thinking.

Much of the media has used the term "exit controls", so it is an entirely understandable phrase to use. Only a half-wit doesn't understand what it means.