UKIP - The Future - Volume 4
Discussion
TTwiggy said:
My understanding is that the EU and the EHCR are seperate entities and that leaving the EU would have no bearing on our relationship with the EHCR - which, let us not forget, was partly the brainchild of that famous lefty Sir Winston Churchill.
Indeed, but is it not a requirement of EU membership that you abide by the ECHR?anarki said:
What concerns me with ukip is how can we know what the ramifications would be should we depart the EU.
I know that we would save money from not having to pay our contribution to it. I know we'd have more control over local issues and laws, etc.
What about the negatives from leaving it? It can't just be a simple split with no worries to consider, there's important issues such as trade, the freedom to travel, live, work, study and retire anywhere in the EU, etc.
I'm not pro EU by the way, just trying to get facts. One of the facts is that without knowing the effect of leaving the EU how can ukip have a credible economic plan?
I've watched a few of the live debates, question time and what not, the one thing I've noticed is ukip banging on about their manifesto being independently costed by an impartial think-tank.
With the giant "unknown" of severance of the EU I fail to believe it'll all be peachy.
What concerns me is the fact that the political elite lied about the ramifications of joining the "Common Market" in the first place. Had the public known their true, long term, intent from the outset I very much doubt we would even be discussing IN or OUT now.I know that we would save money from not having to pay our contribution to it. I know we'd have more control over local issues and laws, etc.
What about the negatives from leaving it? It can't just be a simple split with no worries to consider, there's important issues such as trade, the freedom to travel, live, work, study and retire anywhere in the EU, etc.
I'm not pro EU by the way, just trying to get facts. One of the facts is that without knowing the effect of leaving the EU how can ukip have a credible economic plan?
I've watched a few of the live debates, question time and what not, the one thing I've noticed is ukip banging on about their manifesto being independently costed by an impartial think-tank.
With the giant "unknown" of severance of the EU I fail to believe it'll all be peachy.
mrpurple said:
anarki said:
What concerns me with ukip is how can we know what the ramifications would be should we depart the EU.
I know that we would save money from not having to pay our contribution to it. I know we'd have more control over local issues and laws, etc.
What about the negatives from leaving it? It can't just be a simple split with no worries to consider, there's important issues such as trade, the freedom to travel, live, work, study and retire anywhere in the EU, etc.
I'm not pro EU by the way, just trying to get facts. One of the facts is that without knowing the effect of leaving the EU how can ukip have a credible economic plan?
I've watched a few of the live debates, question time and what not, the one thing I've noticed is ukip banging on about their manifesto being independently costed by an impartial think-tank.
With the giant "unknown" of severance of the EU I fail to believe it'll all be peachy.
What concerns me is the fact that the political elite lied about the ramifications of joining the "Common Market" in the first place. Had the public known their true, long term, intent from the outset I very much doubt we would even be discussing IN or OUT now.I know that we would save money from not having to pay our contribution to it. I know we'd have more control over local issues and laws, etc.
What about the negatives from leaving it? It can't just be a simple split with no worries to consider, there's important issues such as trade, the freedom to travel, live, work, study and retire anywhere in the EU, etc.
I'm not pro EU by the way, just trying to get facts. One of the facts is that without knowing the effect of leaving the EU how can ukip have a credible economic plan?
I've watched a few of the live debates, question time and what not, the one thing I've noticed is ukip banging on about their manifesto being independently costed by an impartial think-tank.
With the giant "unknown" of severance of the EU I fail to believe it'll all be peachy.
Put it to the vote, whichever way it goes politicians will be able to do whatever the public decides.
TTwiggy said:
lefty Sir Winston Churchill.
He was all over the place. His career was so expansive it is misleading to pigeon-hole like that.Advocated gassing the Kurds on the one hand (whilst serving in the region) and on the other was (later) a Lib Dem at one point and instrumental in the creation of the welfare state.
Digga said:
TTwiggy said:
lefty Sir Winston Churchill.
He was all over the place. His career was so expansive it is misleading to pigeon-hole like that.Advocated gassing the Kurds on the one hand (whilst serving in the region) and on the other was (later) a Lib Dem at one point and instrumental in the creation of the welfare state.
TTwiggy said:
Unlikely to have been a Lib Dem, unless time travel was one of his skills. I agree that he is difficult to pigeon hole, but my point was a facetious dig at the idea of the ECHR being all about granting one-legged lesbians conjugal visiting rights in prison.
Liberal, rather.Yes ECHR was based on some very sound footing, but you have to admit it has evolved into a monster.
TTwiggy said:
Digga said:
Liberal, rather.
Yes ECHR was based on some very sound footing, but you have to admit it has evolved into a monster.
I think the principle of a court for human rights is still sound. Sadly, when lawyers smell a payday...Yes ECHR was based on some very sound footing, but you have to admit it has evolved into a monster.
things like apparently having a Satellite dish is now a human right.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023359/Ha...
Scuffers said:
very much so, it;s not the basic laws that are the problem, it;s the interpritations that's been added to them,
things like apparently having a Satellite dish is now a human right.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023359/Ha...
I don't have one. Who can I sue?things like apparently having a Satellite dish is now a human right.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023359/Ha...
smn159 said:
FiF said:
Also let's not forget that the Telegraph desk has strict instructions from their owners to live up to the Torygraph nickname. Stories which harm Cons to be spiked or downplayed.
Agreed, which is why we should pause for though before getting outraged by any of these storiesDigga said:
Pretty much the whole of the media is in bed with (at least one) political party and sundry big businesses interests. We should all maintain a healthy dose of skepticism.
I think people who buy the Daily Mail and the Daily Mirror together should be certified and locked away.Was there ever any such thing as a "free press".
the funny thing on here with the in/out debate is the powerfully built director position of people looking after themselves,cut benefits etc ,etc. yet many reckon uk businesses will be be up against it if they do not have the eu to hold their hand for them. i prefer to listen to the business owners on here that reckon it will not make a difference.
Digga said:
Greg66 said:
Like the expenses scandal?
Well, if Peter Oborne's resignation article is to be believed, that was prior to the about-turn in journalistic priorities vs. advertising revenue.WinstonWolf said:
Disastrous said:
WinstonWolf said:
You're rattled, how cute.
Are you willing to share your reasons for your prejudice against people with inked skin with the group?
You have been very outspoken about people you *think* are prejudiced in the past, it's only right and proper you explain what you really meant by it.
Nobody can really be that stupid so presume you're simply pretending to think that TKF has a problem with tattoos to avoid his actual point?Are you willing to share your reasons for your prejudice against people with inked skin with the group?
You have been very outspoken about people you *think* are prejudiced in the past, it's only right and proper you explain what you really meant by it.
Prejudice comes in many forms...
Scuffers said:
TTwiggy said:
Digga said:
Liberal, rather.
Yes ECHR was based on some very sound footing, but you have to admit it has evolved into a monster.
I think the principle of a court for human rights is still sound. Sadly, when lawyers smell a payday...Yes ECHR was based on some very sound footing, but you have to admit it has evolved into a monster.
things like apparently having a Satellite dish is now a human right.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023359/Ha...
The issue is not the law but how we establish the principle (borrowing a US term) of originalism.
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