UKIP - The Future - Volume 4

[NoNeed]

TKF said:

A question back to you if I may? Do you think the children of a 3rd-generation never-worked British family living entirely on benefits be able to use the NHS?

What a brilliant question.



whos head will explode first?

[MGJohn]

NoNeed said:

NicD said:

NoNeed said:

You are right, waste in the NHS goes far far greater than a few quid being spent on foreigners.

And that is getting close to the bottom line:

Those that are outraged to see British people suffer while foreigners waltz in for free treatment, and those that think it marks us the 'chosen and civilised nation'

So you can give an example of a Brit being denied treatment as a foreigner had been given it instead as a higher priority?

Yeah and next you and those of similar stance on this matter believe waiting lists do not grow ever longer for non-Health Tourists Brits needing treatment as a result of those queue jumping shortly after arrival at Heathrow asking for directions to the nearest Hospital. Then presenting needing immediate or urgent attention they cannot get or afford to pay for in their place of origin.

We've become a Nation of mugs and there will always be those to take advantage of our "fair" minded approach to so many things.

Why so many here are determined not to see any problem with health tourism or whatever nomenclature it deserves is one of the many reasons why this Nation excels in getting far too many things wrong often with the best of intentions.

[NoNeed]

MGJohn said:

Yeah and next you and those of similar stance on this matter believe waiting lists do not grow ever longer for non-Health Tourists Brits needing treatment as a result of those queue jumping shortly after arrival at Heathrow asking for directions to the nearest Hospital. Then presenting needing immediate or urgent attention they cannot get or afford to pay for in their place of origin.

We've become a Nation of mugs and there will always be those to take advantage of our "fair" minded approach to so many things.

Why so many here are determined not to see any problem with health tourism or whatever nomenclature it deserves is one of the many reasons why this Nation excels in getting far too many things wrong often with the best of intentions.

Why not have a goo at answering TKF'S question above.

[MGJohn]

TKF said:

A question back to you if I may? Do you think the children of a 3rd-generation never-worked British family living entirely on benefits be able to use the NHS?

Here's an answer back at you from someone with basic conservative values who appreciates what Farage has done to alert the Nation about the "benefits" of our open free to all scenario.

At least they have been paying various taxes for at least three generations unless they do not spend one thin penny on any purchases. Furthermore, that is some three generations of tax contributions as opposed to sweet f-all by those gravid females and many others waddling in at terminal 5 Heathrow and many places elsewhere unable to ask the taxi driver directions to the nearest NHS facility. Mind you apparently one did:~.

I need NHS ...

[NoNeed]

MGJohn said:

TKF said:

A question back to you if I may? Do you think the children of a 3rd-generation never-worked British family living entirely on benefits be able to use the NHS?

Here's an answer back at you from someone with basic conservative values who appreciates what Farage has done to alert the Nation about the "benefits" of our open free to all scenario.

At least they have been paying various taxes for at least three generations unless they do not spend one thin penny on any purchases. Furthermore, that is some three generations of tax contributions as opposed to sweet f-all by those gravid females and many others waddling in at terminal 5 Heathrow and many places elsewhere unable to ask the taxi driver directions to the nearest NHS facility. Mind you apparently one did:~.

I need NHS ...

The third generation has done nothing but suck out of the system as the previous two generations. They have not paid into the system at all no one from any of the three generation have had a job.

do they still get healthcare?

[TKF]

MGJohn said:

TKF said:

A question back to you if I may? Do you think the children of a 3rd-generation never-worked British family living entirely on benefits be able to use the NHS?

Here's an answer back at you from someone with basic conservative values who appreciates what Farage has done to alert the Nation about the "benefits" of our open free to all scenario.

At least they have been paying various taxes for at least three generations unless they do not spend one thin penny on any purchases.

They haven't paid a single penny in tax. Every bit of money they've spent is from the welfare we gave them i.e. our tax. They've paid exactly the same amount in tax as a fresh off the boat immigrant.

[MGJohn]

NoNeed said:

MGJohn said:

Yeah and next you and those of similar stance on this matter believe waiting lists do not grow ever longer for non-Health Tourists Brits needing treatment as a result of those queue jumping shortly after arrival at Heathrow asking for directions to the nearest Hospital. Then presenting needing immediate or urgent attention they cannot get or afford to pay for in their place of origin.

We've become a Nation of mugs and there will always be those to take advantage of our "fair" minded approach to so many things.

Why so many here are determined not to see any problem with health tourism or whatever nomenclature it deserves is one of the many reasons why this Nation excels in getting far too many things wrong often with the best of intentions.

Why not have a goo at answering TKF'S question above.

OK I'll have goo... No need NoNeed. Done so two minutes previously..

You and others of a like mind chose to be Mugs... that's your option. Many others including the two retired NHS nurses I spoke to in the waiting room earlier today see things very differently. I do not need to read about these things or look it up on some website, my evidence is the finest available to me. That of my own eyes and ears.

Get this :~ It aint gonna get any better.... none of it. Unless these problems and abuses are addressed effectively.

Whilst I do not wish harm to anyone, there may come a day when as a result of these abuses you or someone close to you will suffer directly as a result. God forbid, but that is always a possibility. Circumstance and reality are harsh taskmasters. Then complete changes of mind and much wisdom acquired after the event often results.

[NoNeed]

MGJohn said:

OK I'll have goo... No need NoNeed. Done so two minutes previously..

You and others of a like mind chose to be Mugs... that's your option. Many others including the two retired NHS nurses I spoke to in the waiting room earlier today see things very differently. I do not need to read about these things or look it up on some website, my evidence is the finest available to me. That of my own eyes and ears.

Get this :~ It aint gonna get any better.... none of it. Unless these problems and abuses are addressed effectively.

Whilst I do not wish harm to anyone, there may come a day when as a result of these abuses you or someone close to you will suffer directly as a result. God forbid, but that is always a possibility. Circumstance and reality are harsh taskmasters. Then complete changes of mind and much wisdom acquired after the event often results.

You have not answered the question, you altered it to suit your argument. No taxes have been paid by the family for three generations should they get healthcare.


I see TKF has already pointed this out.

[MGJohn]

TKF said:

They haven't paid a single penny in tax. Every bit of money they've spent is from the welfare we gave them i.e. our tax. They've paid exactly the same amount in tax as a fresh off the boat immigrant.

You are wrong. Ever heard of VAT ? ...three generations of it. You are still blindly determined to fail to see the harm of these abuses. Carry on regardless.

Whilst I find any generations of breeding on benefits as abhorrent and praise be, Dave is going to address that form of extreme benefit abuse, it would be impossible for those same generations not to purchase anything involving VAT. BOTH those benefit abuse scenarios and all the others are parasitical on this Nation and need to be addressed effectively. The sooner the better and I wish Dave and his new team God Speed in all directions on these abhorrent issues.

Nothing you or anyone else of a like mind say or do will change my stance on these abuses. I am not alone ... far from it.

Bring it on Dave and co.

[NoNeed]

MGJohn said:

You are wrong. Ever heard of VAT ? ...three generations of it. You are still blindly determined to fail to see the harm of these abuses. Carry on regardless.

They are paying VAT with money given to them by the state, that means they have made NO contribution of their own.

Only taken money never given it.


you really are trying not to answer TKF's question aren't you, is it too hard?

[eharding]

NoNeed said:

MGJohn said:

You are wrong. Ever heard of VAT ? ...three generations of it. You are still blindly determined to fail to see the harm of these abuses. Carry on regardless.

They are paying VAT with money given to them by the state, that means they have made NO contribution of their own.

Only taken money never given it.


you really are trying not to answer TKF's question aren't you, is it too hard?

I suspect even one of the slightly-less-that-razor-sharp 'kippers can spot when they're being herded towards a huge heffalump trap.

[MGJohn]

eharding said:

NoNeed said:

MGJohn said:

You are wrong. Ever heard of VAT ? ...three generations of it. You are still blindly determined to fail to see the harm of these abuses. Carry on regardless.

They are paying VAT with money given to them by the state, that means they have made NO contribution of their own.

Only taken money never given it.


you really are trying not to answer TKF's question aren't you, is it too hard?

I suspect even one of the slightly-less-that-razor-sharp 'kippers can spot when they're being herded towards a huge heffalump trap.

Next you'll be telling us that three generations of benefit breeders have never done work "on the side" or "cash in hand" and spent that involving VAT TAX! Crooked or not, they still pay TAX.

Get over it thickos in denial ...

[scenario8]

Arguing the toss over a few morsels of VAT or fuel, tobacco or alcohol duty contributions in a hypothetical discussion seems a bit daft. Overall the average citizen contributes way less than the average citizen consumes - hence the ridiculous national debt. In the lower economic groupings net consumption is enormous.

[eharding]

MGJohn said:

eharding said:

NoNeed said:

MGJohn said:

You are wrong. Ever heard of VAT ? ...three generations of it. You are still blindly determined to fail to see the harm of these abuses. Carry on regardless.

They are paying VAT with money given to them by the state, that means they have made NO contribution of their own.

Only taken money never given it.


you really are trying not to answer TKF's question aren't you, is it too hard?

I suspect even one of the slightly-less-that-razor-sharp 'kippers can spot when they're being herded towards a huge heffalump trap.

Next you'll be telling us that three generations of benefit breeders have never done work "on the side" or "cash in hand" and spent that involving VAT TAX! Crooked or not, they still pay TAX.

Get over it thickos in denial ...

I retract my earlier statement. Stand by on the heffalump trap chaps, he's headed right for it, full speed ahead.

[MGJohn]

scenario8 said:

Arguing the toss over a few morsels of VAT or fuel, tobacco or alcohol duty contributions in a hypothetical discussion seems a bit daft. Overall the average citizen contributes way less than the average citizen consumes - hence the ridiculous national debt. In the lower economic groupings net consumption is enormous.

Only a bit daft ?

What about the above average citizen like wot I am?

...

Thinks. Labour coined the words: Bedroom Tax; Mansion Tax and a lot of good it did them. If Dave succeeds with culling benefit for serial breeders, will Labour coin the words "Breeding Tax"... If they do, make that at least two more decades of being the also run second place in FPTP GEs.

[NoNeed]

MGJohn said:

scenario8 said:

Arguing the toss over a few morsels of VAT or fuel, tobacco or alcohol duty contributions in a hypothetical discussion seems a bit daft. Overall the average citizen contributes way less than the average citizen consumes - hence the ridiculous national debt. In the lower economic groupings net consumption is enormous.

Only a bit daft ?

What about the above average citizen like wot I am?

...

Thinks. Labour coined the words: Bedroom Tax; Mansion Tax and a lot of good it did them. If Dave succeeds with culling benefit for serial breeders, will Labour coin the words "Breeding Tax"... If they do, make that at least two more decades of being the also run second place in FPTP GEs.

All irrelevant to the question that you have done everything to dodge.

From that I conclude that you would happily give healthcare to those that we have kept alive, fed and warm for that last 50 years on the basis that they spend what we give them locally with the exception of the annual jaunt to Benidorm.

And that also you are happy to deny emergency life saving treatment to those that are blacktax neutral but may have come here for a better life and to contribute to our society in a positive way.

Edited by NoNeed on Wednesday 3rd June 04:46

[Scuffers]

NoNeed said:

MGJohn said:

TKF said:

A question back to you if I may? Do you think the children of a 3rd-generation never-worked British family living entirely on benefits be able to use the NHS?

Here's an answer back at you from someone with basic conservative values who appreciates what Farage has done to alert the Nation about the "benefits" of our open free to all scenario.

At least they have been paying various taxes for at least three generations unless they do not spend one thin penny on any purchases. Furthermore, that is some three generations of tax contributions as opposed to sweet f-all by those gravid females and many others waddling in at terminal 5 Heathrow and many places elsewhere unable to ask the taxi driver directions to the nearest NHS facility. Mind you apparently one did:~.

I need NHS ...

The third generation has done nothing but suck out of the system as the previous two generations. They have not paid into the system at all no one from any of the three generation have had a job.

do they still get healthcare?

this is another pointless strawman argument.

two wrongs do not make a right.

and point me at the swaths of 3rd generation UK citizens in this situation that are burdening our NHS?

I think the point being missed here is that with some 600,000 immigrants coming here every year, the simple numbers are unsupportable, we already have too many people in the UK for the infrastructure and services we have (and the numbers are far worse in terms of population if you listen to the supermarkets etc).

[Strawman]

Scuffers said:

I think the point being missed here is that with some 600,000 immigrants coming here every year,

How many of those 600,000 are immigrants claiming UK citizenship and how many economic migrants from other EU countries (which have reciprocal health care payment arrangements) say France or even Germany where Farage's wife comes from? How many of those 600,000 have passed stringent visa tests and are coming to do high paid skilled jobs where they will pay a high rate of tax? No use just lumping the total figure together and claiming they are all going to sponging off the NHS.

[NoNeed]

Scuffers said:

this is another pointless strawman argument.

two wrongs do not make a right.

and point me at the swaths of 3rd generation UK citizens in this situation that are burdening our NHS?

I think the point being missed here is that with some 600,000 immigrants coming here every year, the simple numbers are unsupportable, we already have too many people in the UK for the infrastructure and services we have (and the numbers are far worse in terms of population if you listen to the supermarkets etc).

It is a ligitamate question. If you want to deny Healthcare based on contributions to the system thats is your opinion but to discriminate by allowing our own none contributers in fact most would owe the system is wrong.

[Mrr T]

Scuffers said:

that's not the same question though is it?

infected abroad does not equal immigrants.

other problem is the report you quote is also guessing.

as I keep saying, there are very few hard number to be had on any of this.

the point is though, even if I am 50% out (and I personally think I understated it), it's still a large enough sum of money to make the total health tourism cost of £1.4Bn banded about look laughable, unless your now going to suggest that apart from HIV there is no other health tourism?

As for who should pay, it's called travel insurance for tourists, and health insurance for immigrants, just the same if you go to most other countries in the world.

Do you ever read posts? I have shown you a report on those living with HIV in the UK. Based on that even if your figure of 40% of black Africans living with HIV in the UK are health tourists (this seems very unlikely) at £23k per person per annum the total costs is £230M.

QED.

As for insurance its needed for UK tourist visits since they have limited access to the NHS. Emergence treatment only and costs should be recovered.

As for immigrants you are wrong many countires offer health cover to immigrants who work in the country.