UKIP - The Future - Volume 4

Author
Discussion

Zod

35,295 posts

257 months

Wednesday 3rd June 2015
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This is becoming a little distasteful chaps with everyone weighing in to mock the mad old fool who lives on the village green.

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Wednesday 3rd June 2015
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well, I think we have the full house out now....

Any more?

it's really quite amusing how they all flock together like this.... (not what's that terms again?)

968

11,945 posts

247 months

Wednesday 3rd June 2015
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Scuffers said:
Look, where have I been evasive? I answered the question some 18 ports ago, learn to READ

just because you don't like the answer, does not mean that (1) it's wrong, or (2) I failed to answer it.

seems to me you need to learn the difference between a fact and an opinion.
You've been evasive since you posted your 35% claim, which midenginedcoupe promptly demonstrated was an utter lie that you had concocted with no reference. So I don't like your figure because it's wrong and you have failed to produce a reference.

PRTVR

7,073 posts

220 months

Wednesday 3rd June 2015
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968 said:
PRTVR said:
The looming health care crisis cannot be cured by immigration, eventually the immigrants get old and need looking after, all you are doing is putting off the problem and making it worse, I witnessed a a east European couple, pushing around what appeared to be their parents in NHS wheelchairs, we could be making the problem worse not better.
So what if this supposed Eastern European couple were pushing their parents in wheelchairs? Firstly, how do you know where they got them from? Secondly, how do you know what contribution this couple has made to the economy?
Part of the problem we just do not know the true figures, about the eastern European couple I have to admit I was in lidl, they were in front of me in the queue as they were struggling to talk to the cashier , who was trying her hardest to explain how much the bill was and the warranty on the electrical goods they had bought, would it be unreasonable to presume that their contribution would be minimal without an understanding of English ?

I could fully understand people bringing their parents across, they would have to, there is no state help to look after them, how will the old survive without the support of their children? are these things that are discussed ? I have never heard it mentioned.

What Have I done ... admitted I have been in Aldi on the PH, when there is some on here who consider ASDA the lowest of the low. hehe

968

11,945 posts

247 months

Wednesday 3rd June 2015
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PRTVR said:
Part of the problem we just do not know the true figures, about the eastern European couple I have to admit I was in lidl, they were in front of me in the queue as they were struggling to talk to the cashier , who was trying her hardest to explain how much the bill was and the warranty on the electrical goods they had bought, would it be unreasonable to presume that their contribution would be minimal without an understanding of English ?
Yes it is unreasonable, you have no idea, whatsoever what that couple do or contribute. My house was renovated by a Latvian builder 2 years ago, his spoken English was poor, but we managed to communicate. He did a fantastic job, with top quality work.

With regards to the wheelchairs, how do you know they didn't buy them?


Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Wednesday 3rd June 2015
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anonymous said:
[redacted]
really?

HMG said:
Study-related visas (excluding student visitors) granted have risen 7% (+13,885 to 218,295). The 13,885 increase includes higher numbers for Chinese (+3,979, +7%), Brazilian (+2,649, +115%), Malaysian (+1,852, +23%) and Libyan (+1,550, +64%) nationals. There were falls in study visas granted to Pakistani (-2,511, -35%) and Indian (-1,711, -12%) nationals.

The higher numbers of visas granted corresponded to a 5% increase in university sponsored study visa applications (main applicants) to 167,105. There were falls in applications sponsored by other education sectors. The sponsored applications figures for further education fell 25% to 19,806, English Language schools fell 4% to 3,290 and independent schools fell 5% to 13,091.

Student visitors
There was an 8% increase in student visitor visas granted, to 78,109. Student visitors are normally only allowed to stay for up to 6 months (11 months for English Language schools) and cannot extend their stay. However, the latest data on passenger arrivals, including the majority of student visitors who do not need a visa, showed a fall of 12% in student visitor arrivals (falling 36,100 to 263,000 in 2013).
from here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/immigra...

so that's some 481,295 student and study related visas handed out between 28 August 2014 to 26 November 2014.



Disastrous

10,072 posts

216 months

Wednesday 3rd June 2015
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968 said:
Scuffers said:
and look!

another one of the stupid-squad!

Keep it up and we will have a full set.

As for me, I don't give two sh*ts what you call me, I actually find it quite funny as it's the very same idiots who accuse me of throwing insults about.

Oh, and just to cover your UKIP supporter slur, remember, that's some 4 Million people you are calling thick, you really think that helps your credibility?
Thank you for demonstrating, so perfectly, exactly what I have observed. You seem utterly incapable of maintaining a discussion without abusing the person responding to you.

I read with great care what you posted about the 35% and still there's no explanation where this figure has come from, and how it is that you can produce statistics to suit your argument, from thin air, but no one else who responds can possibly be right and you wrong.
This.

You continually parrot numbers that you have made up based on nothing but gut feeling and yet bark at anyone for proof or evidence if they do the same from an opposing view. It's too ridiculous to engage with.

Cue MGJohn chiming in with "A word in your shell-like...Me old China. None so blind as them who won't...Unsustainable"

Caricatures.

Insults aside, I'm not very left wing at all, considering myself more liberal verging on conservative than anything else. I take issue with UKIP as I see them as a party based on ignorance that exploits people's fear. I'd genuinely like to read reasoned arguments but this sort of nonsense just makes it all too hard to take seriously. You take a jibe as an attack and are constantly defensive.

Confidence doesn't require defensiveness so I assume you know you are on shaky ground and losing the debate badly.

PRTVR

7,073 posts

220 months

Wednesday 3rd June 2015
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anonymous said:
[redacted]

Mrr T

12,152 posts

264 months

Wednesday 3rd June 2015
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anonymous said:
[redacted]
You should also say kippers never accept any evidence which disagrees with them. If you go back 2 pages you will see I provided Scuffers with details of those living in the UK with aids. It did not say how many where health tourists but it was clear from the data that his suggestion that HIV treatment costs more that £1.48M is rubbish. Any comments from him NO.


Mrr T

12,152 posts

264 months

Wednesday 3rd June 2015
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PRTVR said:
Do you know how much care costs for the elderly, £700 pounds a week, how much are the immigrants earning, how much benefits are they receiving, how much tax will have to be paid to cover their own costs, I really do not think it has been thought through, so long as we can get a cheep builder everything's fine, but somebody has to pay in the end taxes will have to rise or services will suffer,
it would be intresting to see the figures for tax returns from immigrants against the numbers that were here.
Then again as the research says most EU immigrants contribute more than they take out. So tax will be lower and services better because of them.

blindswelledrat

25,257 posts

231 months

Wednesday 3rd June 2015
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PRTVR said:
Do you know how much care costs for the elderly, £700 pounds a week, how much are the immigrants earning, how much benefits are they receiving, how much tax will have to be paid to cover their own costs, I really do not think it has been thought through, so long as we can get a cheep builder everything's fine, but somebody has to pay in the end taxes will have to rise or services will suffer,
it would be intresting to see the figures for tax returns from immigrants against the numbers that were here.
When you say things like this you completely ignore the value that the person's work affords the economy over jobs that wouldn't get done anyway.
Take a low level worker like a tradesman. According to you, because he only pays £7k pa in tax and consumes £8k of services, then he is a drain on our economy. You completely ignore the fact that without foreigners our construction industry would be about 1/10th of its size and our economy would be infinitely worse off, if not crippled. The salaries of many British nationals are utterly reliant on the profits created by that immigrant's work, as are the profits of all our large companies. This applies to every industry and is multiplied many-fold when you get to senior high-earning immigrants. Your simplistic view of basic economics is even worse than your ability to spell the word 'cheap'.

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Wednesday 3rd June 2015
quotequote all
Mrr T said:
You should also say kippers never accept any evidence which disagrees with them. If you go back 2 pages you will see I provided Scuffers with details of those living in the UK with aids. It did not say how many where health tourists but it was clear from the data that his suggestion that HIV treatment costs more that £1.48M is rubbish. Any comments from him NO.
you did, but it did not disprove the numbers I posted as I said at the time. (you also ignored the fact the figure I ended up with was cumulative over the years).

you seem to like comparing apples with pears.

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 3rd June 2015
quotequote all
Zod said:
This is becoming a little distasteful chaps with everyone weighing in to mock the mad old fool who lives on the village green.
roflroflrofl

You are, of course, completely right.

However, sometimes in life it is necessary to do that which might be considered distasteful.

Carry on chaps!

Mrr T

12,152 posts

264 months

Wednesday 3rd June 2015
quotequote all
968 said:
PRTVR said:
The looming health care crisis cannot be cured by immigration, eventually the immigrants get old and need looking after, all you are doing is putting off the problem and making it worse, I witnessed a a east European couple, pushing around what appeared to be their parents in NHS wheelchairs, we could be making the problem worse not better.
So what if this supposed Eastern European couple were pushing their parents in wheelchairs? Firstly, how do you know where they got them from? Secondly, how do you know what contribution this couple has made to the economy?
More importantly if they where EU citizens and not of pensionable age they are not likely to pass the residency test so would not be eligible for NHS care. If they are pensioners they can, under an EU scheme receive NHS care but the NHS should be recharging the costs to their country of residence.

don4l

10,058 posts

175 months

Wednesday 3rd June 2015
quotequote all
Mrr T said:
Do you ever read posts? I have shown you a report on those living with HIV in the UK. Based on that even if your figure of 40% of black Africans living with HIV in the UK are health tourists (this seems very unlikely) at £23k per person per annum the total costs is £230M.

QED.

As for insurance its needed for UK tourist visits since they have limited access to the NHS. Emergence treatment only and costs should be recovered.

As for immigrants you are wrong many countires offer health cover to immigrants who work in the country.
Does your £230M include the cost of treating last year's patients?

After a few years, the true cost could easily exceed £2Bn.


TKF

6,232 posts

234 months

Wednesday 3rd June 2015
quotequote all
According to figures I've made up it's nearer £17 trillion. Seventeen trillion GBP!!!

Incredible when you think about this fact isn't it? I assume everyone is happy to have their houses repossessed to pay for African people with AIDS? Because that's what you're all advocating here. I don't want my children and retired army generals who fought for your freedom to pay for this £17Tr debt you all want!!!

blindswelledrat

25,257 posts

231 months

Wednesday 3rd June 2015
quotequote all
I also have done extensive research in my own head, and when your houses get repossessed as a result of this 17 trillion debt, who do you think is going to get those houses?
Blacks, that is who.
You can all sit there in your denial clouds and invite them to come and take your houses, but don't come crying to me (8%) when your daughter has been raped by some aids men (63%) and you cant get her treated for it because of the queue of Africans (82%).

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Wednesday 3rd June 2015
quotequote all
don4l said:
Does your £230M include the cost of treating last year's patients?

After a few years, the true cost could easily exceed £2Bn.
exactly the point I was making.

every year it's an additional sum of money, on top of the years before, ie. it's cumulative.




toohangry

416 posts

108 months

Wednesday 3rd June 2015
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Scuffers said:
don4l said:
Does your £230M include the cost of treating last year's patients?

After a few years, the true cost could easily exceed £2Bn.
exactly the point I was making.

every year it's an additional sum of money, on top of the years before, ie. it's cumulative.
I work it out as being £40bn.

TKF

6,232 posts

234 months

Wednesday 3rd June 2015
quotequote all
toohangry said:
Scuffers said:
don4l said:
Does your £230M include the cost of treating last year's patients?

After a few years, the true cost could easily exceed £2Bn.
exactly the point I was making.

every year it's an additional sum of money, on top of the years before, ie. it's cumulative.
I work it out as being £40bn.
Wow £40Bn??

Crazy when you see it written there in black and white and definitely factual.