UKIP - The Future - Volume 4

Author
Discussion

blindswelledrat

25,257 posts

231 months

Thursday 4th June 2015
quotequote all
Mr_B said:
blindswelledrat said:
Are you serious?
Well to start with just consider the fact that our population itself is comprised of hundreds of years of immigration.
You talk as though its a new thing and it's really not.
Even just talking about first generation immigrants, our current workforce contains 15% of direct immigrants.
THis idea that people like you have that we just send them back and easily replace that with our current unemployed is not even remotely realistic but if you genuinely believe that you could just motivate our current 5 million unemployed to fill gap left by those immigrants and all will be rosy, then you and I can't really have a meaningful discussion because our perception of how our current economy works is so incredibly divided that there is no common ground.
You really are incapable of representing anything you don't agree with with any honesty , are you ? What the hell are you talking about with ' people like me sending people back ' type ste ?
The debate is quite obviously about the current levels of immigration and if that is long term sensible and if it should be controlled in numbers and quality. I'm quite aware of the fact the immigration contributes and is helpful, as well as I am that not all of it is wonderful and not all immigrants are beneficial in the short term, let alone the long term.
You would look less comical on the subject if you didn't just talk blindly that immigration all fabulous and can continue as is.
Not quite, the discussion was you asking me to explain how our economy was built on immigration.
I explained that 15% of our workforce was comprised of direct first generation immigration (which is far more than our genuinely unemployed figure) and on top of that our economy is a result of hundreds of years of immigration.
Trying to undermine my point by smarmy one-line replies and complete inventions of things I haven't said is a little bit silly.


toohangry

416 posts

108 months

Thursday 4th June 2015
quotequote all
TKF said:
BAZOOKA
haha

Mr_B

10,480 posts

242 months

Thursday 4th June 2015
quotequote all
blindswelledrat said:
Mr_B said:
blindswelledrat said:
Are you serious?
Well to start with just consider the fact that our population itself is comprised of hundreds of years of immigration.
You talk as though its a new thing and it's really not.
Even just talking about first generation immigrants, our current workforce contains 15% of direct immigrants.
THis idea that people like you have that we just send them back and easily replace that with our current unemployed is not even remotely realistic but if you genuinely believe that you could just motivate our current 5 million unemployed to fill gap left by those immigrants and all will be rosy, then you and I can't really have a meaningful discussion because our perception of how our current economy works is so incredibly divided that there is no common ground.
You really are incapable of representing anything you don't agree with with any honesty , are you ? What the hell are you talking about with ' people like me sending people back ' type ste ?
The debate is quite obviously about the current levels of immigration and if that is long term sensible and if it should be controlled in numbers and quality. I'm quite aware of the fact the immigration contributes and is helpful, as well as I am that not all of it is wonderful and not all immigrants are beneficial in the short term, let alone the long term.
You would look less comical on the subject if you didn't just talk blindly that immigration all fabulous and can continue as is.
Not quite, the discussion was you asking me to explain how our economy was built on immigration.
I explained that 15% of our workforce was comprised of direct first generation immigration (which is far more than our genuinely unemployed figure) and on top of that our economy is a result of hundreds of years of immigration.
Trying to undermine my point by smarmy one-line replies and complete inventions of things I haven't said is a little bit silly.
It isn't built "completely" on immigration as you stated, it's partly built on immigration of which you can further break it down to those who will come, never contribute and if they stay, become a huge expense. If you were even half honest you may have said 'partly' rather than embellish your point and also then try and taint me with your stupid ' people like you wanting to send them back' type ste you don't seem to have a problem with writing. Typing that kinda thing while patting yourself on the back about how wonderfully moral you are, is the kinda reverse BNP type thinking I despise.

968

11,945 posts

247 months

Thursday 4th June 2015
quotequote all
FiF said:
Is anybody in any numbers actually saying that? I interpret the supposed "send-em-back" policy as pull up the drawbridges, nobody else, no exceptions and send back the rest, not sure who the rest is, but anyway.

I thought that what was being suggested was a "we are where we are" stance and then trying to shift policy so that we have more control on who settles here, combined with changes to the welfare state to reduce the pull from overseas of low skilled workers and to get the people already here wherever they are from off benefits by various means. That will necessarily be a long term task over more than one Parliament one suggests.

Perhaps there is somebody somewhere saying send em all back. That's setting aside the work of the Borders and Immigration shower, whatever they're called this week, in dealing with genuine illegals with no valid claim for asylum, which suppose that is a send em back policy on a very closely defined subset.

Now if I've missed it please point it out because I haven't seen any mass call for send em back. Of course there have been studies which show a vast majority of the population think that immigration is too high, 76% iirc. Also a majority of allethnic groups. Tbh This phone is useless when it comes to posting links mid post, let me know if you want links to those studies and will try and sort something out.
Even though I don't agree with everything you've written, thank you for responding to a post without abusing the previous poster. It's genuinely refreshing and encouraging to see an intelligent and coherent post that doesn't make massive unsubstantiated assumptions after ritually abusing those you disagree with.

PRTVR

7,072 posts

220 months

Thursday 4th June 2015
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I used Greece as an example, only because it was on the news,the people did not want to move but said they had no choice, Greece is still solvent, due to gifts of money, but there will come a time when the gifts will stop, then the creek that Greece are up will dry up, then who knows what will happen.
problems exist in a lot of EU countries, Spain youth unemployment at 50% building trade almost collapsed, Portugal is similar, this is without the new EU member states that are starting from a low economic base, who knows what the future holds, but let's just ignore it shall we?

968

11,945 posts

247 months

Thursday 4th June 2015
quotequote all
PRTVR said:
I used Greece as an example, only because it was on the news,the people did not want to move but said they had no choice, Greece is still solvent, due to gifts of money, but there will come a time when the gifts will stop, then the creek that Greece are up will dry up, then who knows what will happen.
problems exist in a lot of EU countries, Spain youth unemployment at 50% building trade almost collapsed, Portugal is similar, this is without the new EU member states that are starting from a low economic base, who knows what the future holds, but let's just ignore it shall we?
Greece is barely solvent and the greek doctors I work with who are working here tell me how hard life is in that country. Despite that, there isn't mass migration from Greece and indeed despite 50% youth unemployment in Spain and Portugal, we haven't seen a massive flood of young Spaniards or Portuguese so doesn't that rather undermine your point?

Strawman

6,463 posts

206 months

Thursday 4th June 2015
quotequote all
PRTVR said:
I used Greece as an example, only because it was on the news,the people did not want to move but said they had no choice, Greece is still solvent, due to gifts of money, but there will come a time when the gifts will stop, then the creek that Greece are up will dry up, then who knows what will happen.
problems exist in a lot of EU countries, Spain youth unemployment at 50% building trade almost collapsed, Portugal is similar, this is without the new EU member states that are starting from a low economic base, who knows what the future holds, but let's just ignore it shall we?
The Spainish economy is improving and those in work increasing fast
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/47351f4a-a21e-11e4-aba2-...

The financial crisis that the world has just gone through messed up a lot of economies but there are signs that things are now improving worldwide. When you say who knows what the future holds that is true but why assume it is going to be worse than now? Pessimism ia a mindset which creates a poor future, a self fulfilling prophecy.

brenflys777

2,678 posts

176 months

Thursday 4th June 2015
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I think your comment that there is an overt assumption that foreigners are work shy, low skilled & HIV riddled is unreasonable.

I haven't seen that gross generalisation from UKIP or within this thread, except from yourself.

Taking each point individually. Work-shy - some foreigners doubtless are, but one of my concerns and UKIPs about uncontrolled immigration, is based on the complete opposite view. In my experience most economic migrants are more motivated to work which is great for the employers that take them. However it's not helpful in skewing the market and makes it very difficult to incentivise the UKs unemployed as the jobs you could encourage them to take under sanction are no longer vacant.

The point about low-skilled is again something I'm not convinced by. Just because many immigrants are doing unskilled jobs doesn't mean they are unskilled themselves. If anything the massive beneficial difference in standards of living between UK and Romania for instance might encourage the skilled workers of Romania to come here for low skilled but better paid jobs. The brain drain to these countries and the difficulty of our low skilled to compete against better candidates is the problem.

Finally, an overt assumption that foreigners are HIV riddled! Honestly if you think that UKIP or most UKIP voters/posters believe that then you have been wasting masses of time coming on this thread. Farage talked about a specific problem which many people including myself see as a threat to the viability of the NHS. It is a national service but expensive treatments (HIV included) become available to those who arrive in the UK and are then diagnosed. This international largesse is just one area which seems at odds with a National health service which struggles to meet the publics current demands and cannot find everything. It is a fairness issue in my opinion and whilst I thought there were better examples I don't see it as racist or xenophobic to point out something that does occur even if the exact figures are not agreed.




PRTVR

7,072 posts

220 months

Thursday 4th June 2015
quotequote all
968 said:
PRTVR said:
I used Greece as an example, only because it was on the news,the people did not want to move but said they had no choice, Greece is still solvent, due to gifts of money, but there will come a time when the gifts will stop, then the creek that Greece are up will dry up, then who knows what will happen.
problems exist in a lot of EU countries, Spain youth unemployment at 50% building trade almost collapsed, Portugal is similar, this is without the new EU member states that are starting from a low economic base, who knows what the future holds, but let's just ignore it shall we?
Greece is barely solvent and the greek doctors I work with who are working here tell me how hard life is in that country. Despite that, there isn't mass migration from Greece and indeed despite 50% youth unemployment in Spain and Portugal, we haven't seen a massive flood of young Spaniards or Portuguese so doesn't that rather undermine your point?
The point I was trying to make was that they may be a tipping point that creates that condition in the future, as with Greece running out of money, to move to another country away from everybody you know is a big step, but if things get bad people will move, then how do we cope?

968

11,945 posts

247 months

Thursday 4th June 2015
quotequote all
PRTVR said:
The point I was trying to make was that they may be a tipping point that creates that condition in the future, as with Greece running out of money, to move to another country away from everybody you know is a big step, but if things get bad people will move, then how do we cope?
Maybe, but as Strawman points out, the situation is improving in some EU countries and the apocalypse hasn't happened yet, despite the dire situation of some EU economies, including Greece. He's also right to say that pessimism creates the conditions for negativity.

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Thursday 4th June 2015
quotequote all
Mrr T said:
Really ?

On page 245 you clearly referred to greater than £1.48bn per annum.

Scuffers said:
now, you compare this with the so called 'facts' of the total health tourism bill being only ~£1.4Bn PA, then it's pretty damn obvious to anybody with half a brain, that the £1.4Bn is laughly wrong when the cumulative effect of the last 10 years just in HIV patients can pretty much account for that much.
no I did not, you even quoted my post, yet you still can't get it right.

Look, we are never going to bottom this one out if you willfully refuse to understand what is posted.

your either terminally stupid or willfully trying to misinterpret and thus create a bogus argument.

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Thursday 4th June 2015
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
no, it's just you are you're ignorant mates who cannot read and understand what is posted without making huge assumptions and going off on the xenophobe/homophobe/whatever trip.

what you continually fail to do is separate the people from the numbers, it's not about who they are, and to a point, where they come from, so much as the shear numbers and what it's costing us as a country.

Pick another example, the UK birth numbers, some 75% of current births are to immigrants, this is causing huge issues down the line for the infrastructure to support these numbers, hence why 4-5 years on, we have a shortage of infant places in schools etc.

Once again, it's not about where these immigrants have come from, it's the numbers.

you cannot keep importing 600K+ people a year and not expect there to be problem, and before you then go on and tell me that X numbers are leaving, yes that's true, but statistically, the ones leaving have already had children, so if they stayed most are unlikely to add to the population any more.

Please explain in what way any of these points is either racist or xenophobic?

Bill

52,473 posts

254 months

Thursday 4th June 2015
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
Pick another example, the UK birth numbers, some 75% of current births are to immigrants,
Love to know where you get this from. I'll give you a head start: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/vsob1/birth-summary-...

brenflys777

2,678 posts

176 months

Thursday 4th June 2015
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Your comment that within the thread we needed to deal with the overt assumption about foreigners being low skilled/work shy & HIV riddled seemed to be a gross generalisation that was not evidenced. If this accusation is made at Scuffers, I haven't seen a post where he has made an overt statement that assumes these things are all true. Maybe I've missed it?

I think you are making an assumption about Farage and my views on health tourism. I think it is impossible within the current data to prove whether people are health tourists or economic migrants, but if they can access the NHS for more than emergency treatment on arrival in the UK it is an issue. Carswells beef with Farage about tone and negativity is something I agree with.

Now lastly can you clarify - the last paragraph you seem to be saying that the difference between us is..., are you talking about you and specifically me? I'm jet lagged and don't want to misinterpret what you are saying about the prejudiced and not.

brenflys777

2,678 posts

176 months

Thursday 4th June 2015
quotequote all
UKIPs new press team:

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/06/n...

Glad, O'Flynn has moved sideways, I hope these guys give a bit more of a professional display and that Suzanne Evans isn't sidelined. I still feel Farage should have taken a break but baring ill health he seems determined to stay.

968

11,945 posts

247 months

Thursday 4th June 2015
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
So the 75% (like the 35%) is another lie?

Zod

35,295 posts

257 months

Thursday 4th June 2015
quotequote all
968 said:
So the 75% (like the 35%) is another lie?
Not really a lie; the figure just came to him.

Disastrous

10,072 posts

216 months

Thursday 4th June 2015
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
If you're too thick to read what I've written and insist on making up facts and putting words in my mouth then I can't help you. Suggest you go back and read the bit I've bolded* to help you out.

/Scuffers


  • Please note bolded area will have zero relevance to point you made.

Bill

52,473 posts

254 months

Thursday 4th June 2015
quotequote all
I hope the out campaign's argument is better constructed than this otherwise the EU will laugh at CMD's attempts at a renegotiation because the referendum is an empty threat.

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Thursday 4th June 2015
quotequote all
Bill said:
Scuffers said:
Pick another example, the UK birth numbers, some 75% of current births are to immigrants,
Love to know where you get this from. I'll give you a head start: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/vsob1/birth-summary-...
sorry, you're right, I got the wrong side of the figure, it's 26.5%/73.5% Non-UK born/Uk Born.

does not change the point though, unless you're suggesting that Non-UK born immigrants are 26.5% of the population.

Edited by Scuffers on Thursday 4th June 14:54