Good to see we're deporting the right people
Discussion
Oakey said:
unrepentant said:
C'mon, there is not a snowballs chance in hell that he will be deported. It's an extreme case and will obviously be sorted out. His old mum is still alive and he has 3 British kids. This is just red meat for the knuckle dragging racists to get worked up about.
You'd hope so, right? But then, they fined his employer £15,000 so it doesn't sound like common sense is prevailing."A Home Office spokesman said: "People born overseas to a British parent do not gain an automatic right to long term residency in the UK, and the onus is on the individual to ensure their immigration status is free of time restrictions.
"Mr Jordan was told in 2007 of the need to formalise his stay in the UK by providing evidence to support his claim of long term residency. He was also advised in writing on three occasions what level of evidence is required but he has still failed to provide it"
Stupid is as stupid does. Had he provided what was requested at the time he would not be in this position and his employer would be £15000 better off.
Scuffers said:
Bill said:
tangerine_sedge said:
He's the one that wants British citizenship, he can provide the proof. It's not for the state to guess who he may or may not be.
The state should have nannied him, found his paperwork and sorted it out. 
I can't believe anyone is arguing he's not at fault here.
Scuffers said:
FFS how many seconds would it take the Home Office to verify?
He gives a name (which may or may not be correct) then the HO has to work out who he is? Alternatively he provides some evidence, how many seconds would that take?Scuffers said:
Yes, I am sure he has not exactly helped himself, but if you have ever seen Home Office paperwork, I can well imagine him thinking why am I filling this stuff in for.
If he wants to be a British citizen then he'll have to work a little for it.Scuffers said:
seems like a classic case of computer says NO.
Seems like a classic case of lazyitis to me. If the bloke wants British citizenship then he can bloody well get his finger out and provide the little bit of information that the HO need. The guy is either lazy, stupid or trying to hide something (has he been paying his taxes for example?). I can't quite work out why you're defending this bloke. You're not from Manchester are you?tangerine_sedge said:
Scuffers said:
FFS how many seconds would it take the Home Office to verify?
He gives a name (which may or may not be correct) then the HO has to work out who he is? Alternatively he provides some evidence, how many seconds would that take?they already know who he is, they know where he works (and thus will have his NI number)
Not everybody is good at filling in official forms etc, and yes he probably should have found some help, but FFS it's not that hard for the home office to look s
t up for itself is it?Scuffers said:
tangerine_sedge said:
Scuffers said:
FFS how many seconds would it take the Home Office to verify?
He gives a name (which may or may not be correct) then the HO has to work out who he is? Alternatively he provides some evidence, how many seconds would that take?they already know who he is, they know where he works (and thus will have his NI number)
Not everybody is good at filling in official forms etc, and yes he probably should have found some help, but FFS it's not that hard for the home office to look s
t up for itself is it?
His problems might only just be beginning.
If he is an American Citizen then income tax is due on his income (worldwide income)
UK and the US do have tax treaties, so he would use UK tax as a US credit but there are fines for not filing if income is over 10k, how many years.... poor bugger.
If he is an American Citizen then income tax is due on his income (worldwide income)
UK and the US do have tax treaties, so he would use UK tax as a US credit but there are fines for not filing if income is over 10k, how many years.... poor bugger.
jeff m2 said:
His problems might only just be beginning.
If he is an American Citizen then income tax is due on his income (worldwide income)
UK and the US do have tax treaties, so he would use UK tax as a US credit but there are fines for not filing if income is over 10k, how many years.... poor bugger.
IRS is the least of his problems. Google the penalties for not filing fbar!If he is an American Citizen then income tax is due on his income (worldwide income)
UK and the US do have tax treaties, so he would use UK tax as a US credit but there are fines for not filing if income is over 10k, how many years.... poor bugger.
Scuffers said:
tangerine_sedge said:
Scuffers said:
FFS how many seconds would it take the Home Office to verify?
He gives a name (which may or may not be correct) then the HO has to work out who he is? Alternatively he provides some evidence, how many seconds would that take?they already know who he is, they know where he works (and thus will have his NI number)
Not everybody is good at filling in official forms etc, and yes he probably should have found some help, but FFS it's not that hard for the home office to look s
t up for itself is it?People who don't have any sort of legitimate claim, simply destroy all their passport / documentation / identity and claim they are from Portugal or something, or some go all out to hide where they're really from, so they can stay because nobody knows where they should be sent back to.
The burden of "proof of origin" in immigration HAS to be on the claimant for this reason.
Now this guy clearly has good evidence in that his friends and mother can back his story up, but the immigration services are clearly playing his case 100% by the rules, presumably due to his lack of cooperation over 8 years, and asking him to prove it. I really can't fault them for that.
Besides, going back to my earlier point, he HAS managed to complete the forms and procedures necessary to maintain an up-to-date American passport. Whether he did that himself or had help with the forms, he is clearly capable of doing the equivalent forms and procedures for the UK passport. So why doesn't he just do it, and save everyone a whole load of grief.
Scuffers said:
how do you know this for a fact?
I read he *had* a US passport, ie, past tense, but could be interpreted either way.
I know it as much as any of the "facts" that this whole thread is based on.I read he *had* a US passport, ie, past tense, but could be interpreted either way.
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greate...
"has an American passport" - has not had
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-32...
"An American passport-holder, he said he did not realise he needed British citizenship to stay in the country" - passport-holder not expired-passport-holder
The news articles say he has a US passport. He didn't keep the same one for 50 years since he was a 3 year old, he has to have renewed it, it's stated that he travelled in 2007, a 50 year old can't do that on a 3 year old's passport.
If you're questioning the reporting of this "fact" then surely you should be questioning every single aspect, i.e. I don't see how you can be selective over which reported facts are true and which aren't, without being in the immigration dept handling his claim.
Also from the MEN article:
"In fact the former railway guard and Royal Mail postman claims he did not know he had done anything wrong until just before Christmas when immigration officers turned up at the pub where he worked."
But he did, he knew in 2007 when he was stopped by immigration at the airport and he knew on the 3 occasions they wrote to him. He seems to be sparing with the truth, unless it's the immigration service being dishonest, despite having no real reason to do so? As I said earlier, there only seems to be half the story coming from him and his petition.
Scuffers said:
tangerine_sedge said:
Scuffers said:
FFS how many seconds would it take the Home Office to verify?
He gives a name (which may or may not be correct) then the HO has to work out who he is? Alternatively he provides some evidence, how many seconds would that take?they already know who he is, they know where he works (and thus will have his NI number)
Not everybody is good at filling in official forms etc, and yes he probably should have found some help, but FFS it's not that hard for the home office to look s
t up for itself is it?Scuffers said:
at the moment, if somebody comes from the EU, we have no means to even ask them who they are, let alone of they have a criminal record.
if they had to apply for a visa, then it becomes much easier, yes they could lie, but I would hope we would setup some basic checking from the application (much as the US and Aus etc do now)
So we should force someone from the EU zone to complete paperwork to come here (even though they have a legal right to freedom of movement), but we can't ask people who are already here (without authorisation) to complete some paperwork? You could argue that a tourist visa is different to proving rights to remain, but basically it's for the same reason no?if they had to apply for a visa, then it becomes much easier, yes they could lie, but I would hope we would setup some basic checking from the application (much as the US and Aus etc do now)
I can't understand why you are finding the concept of proving your right to stay in the country so difficult?
It's not the HO's job to find reasons why this man should stay. They probably have thousands of such cases and if they had to do basic background research for each one it would cost the tax payer £millions. By forcing the applicant to complete the form you are : (i) collating the basic information which will make a more thorough search easier (and cheaper), and (ii) getting a signature that the claimant is telling the truth, very useful if the HO has to go legal and extradite.
I'm pretty sure that 2 hours of form filling at some point over the last 8 years might have made this a none-story. Don't get me wrong he obviously has a very good case which makes me even more confused why he didn't complete the forms when asked..
tangerine_sedge said:
I'm pretty sure that 2 hours of form filling at some point over the last 8 years might have made this a none-story. Don't get me wrong he obviously has a very good case which makes me even more confused why he didn't complete the forms when asked..
I would assume so but not enough detail in the story.https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
Scuffers said:
get a grip FFS
You are wrong. The next time you need a new passport try walking in to a post office with nothing and asking for one. You're not going to get one, they will ask for some paperwork and what are you going to say? "No"? "You could easily look up my information"? Good luck. The fact is you want almost anything you have to fill in some fvcking paperwork, it's boring and government should make every effort to minimise it but it gets things done. There's no reason this idiot should be made an exception of because he's too bone idle to jump through the most basic administrative hoops. FFS he's a US citizen, try working there without paperwork, the last time I did was on an E1 Visa which took me 2 weeks to complete with a specialist law firm and was over an inch thick! It will be interesting to see if he's as bad at US paperwork as he is English because that will cause him far more legal problems than he has currently!
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