It's all over milipede is going to win :(

[Dr Jekyll]

klootzak said:

JustAnotherLogin said:

And why this obsession with manufacturing over service industries. Is making a car somehow more worthy or noble than providing higher value added design expertise to design things people want whilst it is made cheaply elsewhere? Or making films that people want to see?

Sorry, but are you seriously suggesting that taking a punt with someone-else's money is in any way equivalent to actually creating something?

Seriously?

Christ, no wonder the UK is fked.

k

The point is that investment is necessary, whatever kind of fund does it.

[julian64]

Du1point8 said:

If we need the London money men so much, why is Labour so intent on taxing them to death or until they leave the country?

Last time they introduced the 50p tax the government lost over £500 million a year in taxes (that was an immediate consequence) so what is their answer this time round if they get in power?

Lets do it all again!!

When will they learn?

I have no idea, and not sure why you would ask me. Perhaps because they are one of the few things in this country that makes money so the government (whatever government ) will be all over them like flies round a honey pot.

It really doesn't matter how much you tax an industry, as long as you don't make it fail, and you aren't taxing it as much as the next place would. Politicians and Parasites are pretty much the same species.

[klootzak]

Dr Jekyll said:

The point is that investment is necessary, whatever kind of fund does it.

But hedge funds aren't anything to do with real investment (in creativity and production). They're about administering bets.

I have massive respect for proper venture capitalists and none at all for city bookies.

k

[Du1point8]

klootzak said:

Dr Jekyll said:

The point is that investment is necessary, whatever kind of fund does it.

But hedge funds aren't anything to do with real investment (in creativity and production). They're about administering bets.

I have massive respect for proper venture capitalists and none at all for city bookies.

k

Do you have a pension?

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/94133a58-3e7e-11e4-adef-...

Those bookies help you to be able to retire with a nice pot.

[Dr Jekyll]

klootzak said:

But hedge funds aren't anything to do with real investment (in creativity and production). They're about administering bets.

I have massive respect for proper venture capitalists and none at all for city bookies.

k

So you don't agree that buying shares can be investing then?

[TEKNOPUG]

Sway said:

julian64 said:

Because its an attempt at a put down. Its easier to write a put down than to give any thought to what you are saying. Its a bit like the schoolyard where people are trying to look clever with a one liner. I find that politics particular brings out this sort of mentality. its almost a football mentality, where when you say something disparaging about their favourite team, they insult first, and if you're really lucky they think about what’s been said later.

I think it remains that its a very sad thing that we have lost all manufacturing industry in this country. We need london money men or the place would be bankrupt, but that is a long way from thinking that just following people who work in a legalised gambling den is the right way for this country.

The right way is to be diverse in our production, rather than just cling to whats currently working for us.

Not sure either party is particulary interested in that.

I have to say I struggle with the concept that we've 'lost all manufacturing industry in this country'...

The Nissan factory in Sunderland makes more cars per annum than the whole of Italy. Then you have Honda, JLR, Rolls Royce, MINI, Bentley, Lotus, Morgan and others. I'm currently working for a firm that makes flight simulators, which are shipped all over the world. The vast majority of the supply chain and engineering is within the UK.

Yes, we've lost a lot of the heavy industry such as steelmaking, etc., however that's because we cannot compete with developing countries with exceptionally low wages compared to here. Would a steelworker in Sheffield be happy to work for under £250 per month?

Manufacturing is massive in the UK. It doesn't need as many staff as it used to, but go anywhere near the ports and you'll see lots and lots of shiny kit made here that's heading to customers abroad...

The UK is in the top 10 countries of global manufacturing using any method of analysis; % world manufacture, Manufacturing value-added per capita etc. Our industrial output makes up a greater proportion of our GDP that it does in the US. Look at the figures for any developed nation and their service industry will be the major proportion of their economy - usually 70% and higher. Even China's service sector is bigger than their industry.

Even so, we have a GDP of £2.5 trillion, of which 21% is from the industry sector, (that's £525 billion) yet apparently we have lost all manufacturing industry in this country

[Du1point8]

TEKNOPUG said:

Sway said:

julian64 said:

Because its an attempt at a put down. Its easier to write a put down than to give any thought to what you are saying. Its a bit like the schoolyard where people are trying to look clever with a one liner. I find that politics particular brings out this sort of mentality. its almost a football mentality, where when you say something disparaging about their favourite team, they insult first, and if you're really lucky they think about what’s been said later.

I think it remains that its a very sad thing that we have lost all manufacturing industry in this country. We need london money men or the place would be bankrupt, but that is a long way from thinking that just following people who work in a legalised gambling den is the right way for this country.

The right way is to be diverse in our production, rather than just cling to whats currently working for us.

Not sure either party is particulary interested in that.

I have to say I struggle with the concept that we've 'lost all manufacturing industry in this country'...

The Nissan factory in Sunderland makes more cars per annum than the whole of Italy. Then you have Honda, JLR, Rolls Royce, MINI, Bentley, Lotus, Morgan and others. I'm currently working for a firm that makes flight simulators, which are shipped all over the world. The vast majority of the supply chain and engineering is within the UK.

Yes, we've lost a lot of the heavy industry such as steelmaking, etc., however that's because we cannot compete with developing countries with exceptionally low wages compared to here. Would a steelworker in Sheffield be happy to work for under £250 per month?

Manufacturing is massive in the UK. It doesn't need as many staff as it used to, but go anywhere near the ports and you'll see lots and lots of shiny kit made here that's heading to customers abroad...

The UK is in the top 10 countries of global manufacturing using any method of analysis; % world manufacture, Manufacturing value-added per capita etc. Our industrial output makes up a greater proportion of our GDP that it does in the US. Look at the figures for any developed nation and their service industry will be the major proportion of their economy - usually 70% and higher. Even China's service sector is bigger than their industry.

Even so, we have a GDP of £2.5 trillion, of which 21% is from the industry sector, (that's £525 billion) yet apparently we have lost all manufacturing industry in this country

The current trend is that service sectors are indeed all bigger than industry.

The only thing that the blinkered people see is that in comparison the difference in % is a lot more in terms of service vs industry compared to other countries, all of them... surprise surprise don't have the financial capital of the world in their country, so their % is not 'as bad'.

However because the UK has industry that is something like a 14% compared to Germany on 22%+, we are deemed to be throwing away our industry sector.

[klootzak]

Dr Jekyll said:

So you don't agree that buying shares can be investing then?

Certainly, buying shares can be investing. If you do it with your own money.

Hedgies just pool groups of stocks and take risks with other people's money.

On the whole, they do no better than trackers.

So much for skill.

k

[Walter Sobchak]

rohrl said:

Listen to the brilliant ensemble playing of Banks, Collins and Rutherford. You can practically hear every nuance of every instrument. In terms of lyrical craftsmanship, the sheer songwriting, this album hits a new peak of professionalism. Phil Collins' solo career seems to be more commercial and therefore more satisfying, in a narrower way. Especially songs like In the Air Tonight and Against All Odds.

good man!, I was going to post the whole thing but couldn't be bothered to edit out the instructions to the hookers.

[klootzak]

Du1point8 said:

Do you have a pension?

Not the kind that you're referring to, no.

I have money I've made in business that I look after myself. None of it is with hedge funds.

Du1point8 said:

Those bookies help you to be able to retire with a nice pot.

Nope, they just take a handsome commission for making decisions I could easily make myself.

On the whole, hedgies do little better than simply investing in trackers these days. But trackers don't spend so much time telling the world how talented and important they are.

k

[PRTVR]

Du1point8 said:

TEKNOPUG said:

Sway said:

julian64 said:

Because its an attempt at a put down. Its easier to write a put down than to give any thought to what you are saying. Its a bit like the schoolyard where people are trying to look clever with a one liner. I find that politics particular brings out this sort of mentality. its almost a football mentality, where when you say something disparaging about their favourite team, they insult first, and if you're really lucky they think about what’s been said later.

I think it remains that its a very sad thing that we have lost all manufacturing industry in this country. We need london money men or the place would be bankrupt, but that is a long way from thinking that just following people who work in a legalised gambling den is the right way for this country.

The right way is to be diverse in our production, rather than just cling to whats currently working for us.

Not sure either party is particulary interested in that.

I have to say I struggle with the concept that we've 'lost all manufacturing industry in this country'...

The Nissan factory in Sunderland makes more cars per annum than the whole of Italy. Then you have Honda, JLR, Rolls Royce, MINI, Bentley, Lotus, Morgan and others. I'm currently working for a firm that makes flight simulators, which are shipped all over the world. The vast majority of the supply chain and engineering is within the UK.

Yes, we've lost a lot of the heavy industry such as steelmaking, etc., however that's because we cannot compete with developing countries with exceptionally low wages compared to here. Would a steelworker in Sheffield be happy to work for under £250 per month?

Manufacturing is massive in the UK. It doesn't need as many staff as it used to, but go anywhere near the ports and you'll see lots and lots of shiny kit made here that's heading to customers abroad...

The UK is in the top 10 countries of global manufacturing using any method of analysis; % world manufacture, Manufacturing value-added per capita etc. Our industrial output makes up a greater proportion of our GDP that it does in the US. Look at the figures for any developed nation and their service industry will be the major proportion of their economy - usually 70% and higher. Even China's service sector is bigger than their industry.

Even so, we have a GDP of £2.5 trillion, of which 21% is from the industry sector, (that's £525 billion) yet apparently we have lost all manufacturing industry in this country

The current trend is that service sectors are indeed all bigger than industry.

The only thing that the blinkered people see is that in comparison the difference in % is a lot more in terms of service vs industry compared to other countries, all of them... surprise surprise don't have the financial capital of the world in their country, so their % is not 'as bad'.

However because the UK has industry that is something like a 14% compared to Germany on 22%+, we are deemed to be throwing away our industry sector.

From my perspective we could be doing more, its a disgrace that we have given up in certain sectors, take ship building, we live on an island, but when a ferry was needed in Scotland it was made in Germany, if they can do it why cannot we? They are not a low cost manufacturing area, Sweden, Norway, Italy all providing jobs building ships, the problem is that it would need a large amount of money from government to set up.

[Dr Jekyll]

PRTVR said:

From my perspective we could be doing more, its a disgrace that we have given up in certain sectors, take ship building, we live on an island, but when a ferry was needed in Scotland it was made in Germany, if they can do it why cannot we? They are not a low cost manufacturing area, Sweden, Norway, Italy all providing jobs building ships, the problem is that it would need a large amount of money from government to set up.

Because when we did have civilian shipbuilding in this country it needed to be subsidised because it made a loss. In other words far from creating wealth, the finished ships were actually worth less than the materials and labour that had gone into making them

[Du1point8]

PRTVR said:

Du1point8 said:

TEKNOPUG said:

Sway said:

julian64 said:

Because its an attempt at a put down. Its easier to write a put down than to give any thought to what you are saying. Its a bit like the schoolyard where people are trying to look clever with a one liner. I find that politics particular brings out this sort of mentality. its almost a football mentality, where when you say something disparaging about their favourite team, they insult first, and if you're really lucky they think about what’s been said later.

I think it remains that its a very sad thing that we have lost all manufacturing industry in this country. We need london money men or the place would be bankrupt, but that is a long way from thinking that just following people who work in a legalised gambling den is the right way for this country.

The right way is to be diverse in our production, rather than just cling to whats currently working for us.

Not sure either party is particulary interested in that.

I have to say I struggle with the concept that we've 'lost all manufacturing industry in this country'...

The Nissan factory in Sunderland makes more cars per annum than the whole of Italy. Then you have Honda, JLR, Rolls Royce, MINI, Bentley, Lotus, Morgan and others. I'm currently working for a firm that makes flight simulators, which are shipped all over the world. The vast majority of the supply chain and engineering is within the UK.

Yes, we've lost a lot of the heavy industry such as steelmaking, etc., however that's because we cannot compete with developing countries with exceptionally low wages compared to here. Would a steelworker in Sheffield be happy to work for under £250 per month?

Manufacturing is massive in the UK. It doesn't need as many staff as it used to, but go anywhere near the ports and you'll see lots and lots of shiny kit made here that's heading to customers abroad...

The UK is in the top 10 countries of global manufacturing using any method of analysis; % world manufacture, Manufacturing value-added per capita etc. Our industrial output makes up a greater proportion of our GDP that it does in the US. Look at the figures for any developed nation and their service industry will be the major proportion of their economy - usually 70% and higher. Even China's service sector is bigger than their industry.

Even so, we have a GDP of £2.5 trillion, of which 21% is from the industry sector, (that's £525 billion) yet apparently we have lost all manufacturing industry in this country

The current trend is that service sectors are indeed all bigger than industry.

The only thing that the blinkered people see is that in comparison the difference in % is a lot more in terms of service vs industry compared to other countries, all of them... surprise surprise don't have the financial capital of the world in their country, so their % is not 'as bad'.

However because the UK has industry that is something like a 14% compared to Germany on 22%+, we are deemed to be throwing away our industry sector.

From my perspective we could be doing more, its a disgrace that we have given up in certain sectors, take ship building, we live on an island, but when a ferry was needed in Scotland it was made in Germany, if they can do it why cannot we? They are not a low cost manufacturing area, Sweden, Norway, Italy all providing jobs building ships, the problem is that it would need a large amount of money from government to set up.

We might have had a large amount of money to help restart it if had not been spent everything and then some in the 13 good years we had, so there is no money left, the UK credit card has melted and if you need to look at people to blame for that, I suggest it not be Thatcher.

In fact in those years didn't manufacturing actually decline a hell of a lot?

If its the backbone of the UK, why was it not looked after, invested in properly and let to flourish when the money was there, why is it now after a complete rebuild of the UK finances, only now coming up as the next big spend that Labour want to burn the remaining credit card to death.

I hate the two facedness of Labour, they fked the country up (used the banks as scape goats), spent all the money, then blame the Tories for not fixing it quick enough like its all their fault, then say that they are not investing enough in manufacturing, etc... when they could have damn well done that themselves in the 13 years they had in power, if they were not out wasting billions of UK taxpayers money, dumping gold, then stealing from the tax payers in a pension raid whilst keeping public sector pensions intact.

At least the Tories are trying to do good for the UK and thats what counts, not buying votes with handouts, but improving the UK as a whole, I might not thing CMD is the best person for the job, but the alternatives are not worth thinking about.

Anything that Labour and the Greens (Lib Dems too) touch, turns to ash and someone else is to blame.

[klootzak]

Du1point8 said:

We might have had a large amount of money to help restart it if had not been spent everything and then some in the 13 good years we had, so there is no money left, the UK credit card has melted and if you need to look at people to blame for that, I suggest it not be Thatcher.

Why? She set championed the idea that government wasn't responsible for investing in business. The following governments simply ran with her policies.

Du1point8 said:

In fact in those years didn't manufacturing actually decline a hell of a lot?

So who wasn't investing? Government? Money brokers? Hedgies?

Du1point8 said:

If its the backbone of the UK, why was it not looked after, invested in properly and let to flourish when the money was there

Given that it isn't the government's job to support industry, who should have done this? Your hedgie mates? Banks? Anyone else?

Du1point8 said:

I hate the two facedness of Labour, they fked the country up (used the banks as scape goats),

Possibly. Labour's greatest sin was letting the banks and money brokers have it their own way. They exercised zero regulation and were complicit in a global scale economic confidence trick.

Why? Because it let them pay down more national debt than any government before. Sure they increased spending, but the city boys promised that it would all be paid for by magic money. And they believed. Oh they believed.

Du1point8 said:

Anything that Labour and the Greens (Lib Dems too) touch, turns to ash and someone else is to blame.

So what's to blame for the financial crisis in the first place? Lack of regulation, or a failure to act responsibly by the finance industry?

And if it's the lack of regulation, where did that start?

k

[Du1point8]

klootzak said:

Du1point8 said:

We might have had a large amount of money to help restart it if had not been spent everything and then some in the 13 good years we had, so there is no money left, the UK credit card has melted and if you need to look at people to blame for that, I suggest it not be Thatcher.

Why? She set championed the idea that government wasn't responsible for investing in business. The following governments simply ran with her policies.

Du1point8 said:

In fact in those years didn't manufacturing actually decline a hell of a lot?

So who wasn't investing? Government? Money brokers? Hedgies?

Du1point8 said:

If its the backbone of the UK, why was it not looked after, invested in properly and let to flourish when the money was there

Given that it isn't the government's job to support industry, who should have done this? Your hedgie mates? Banks? Anyone else?

Du1point8 said:

I hate the two facedness of Labour, they fked the country up (used the banks as scape goats),

Possibly. Labour's greatest sin was letting the banks and money brokers have it their own way. They exercised zero regulation and were complicit in a global scale economic confidence trick.

Why? Because it let them pay down more national debt than any government before. Sure they increased spending, but the city boys promised that it would all be paid for by magic money. And they believed. Oh they believed.

Du1point8 said:

Anything that Labour and the Greens (Lib Dems too) touch, turns to ash and someone else is to blame.

So what's to blame for the financial crisis in the first place? Lack of regulation, or a failure to act responsibly by the finance industry?

And if it's the lack of regulation, where did that start?

k

Ah... so you are saying they should not invest in any industry and leave them to their own devices? Or you saying they should and are just quoting thatcher?

So you want the financial service to buy out the industry sector and that would kill 2 birds with one stone, with no government involvement?

In fact why are you asking if the finance sector should support the other sectors? Thats like saying department A makes lots of money, lets use it to prop up department B as they are in the same building... Shareholders get the say on what department A does so unless it makes financial sense why would they? Its usually don't with government grants.

The economic crash was due to the mortgages in retail banks and the government enforcing that its everyones human right to own a home, so not sure entirely why you keep mentioning traders and hedge funds that were at fault when it was really badly rated products sold to retail banks that were the real cause.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7521250.stm

The regulation was given to the FSA by Miliband, Balls and Brown (they were proud of that) I don't and can't understand the reason why they thought it to be for the best to take it off BoE who actually knew how to regulate.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/...

Video was here of the 1997 documentary of them doing it, seems like its been removed (wonder who wanted that one).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11...

Would you like more?

[julian64]

Du1point8 said:

Ah... so you are saying they should not invest in any industry and leave them to their own devices? Or you saying they should and are just quoting thatcher?

So you want the financial service to buy out the industry sector and that would kill 2 birds with one stone, with no government involvement?

In fact why are you asking if the finance sector should support the other sectors? Thats like saying department A makes lots of money, lets use it to prop up department B as they are in the same building... Shareholders get the say on what department A does so unless it makes financial sense why would they? Its usually don't with government grants.

The economic crash was due to the mortgages in retail banks and the government enforcing that its everyones human right to own a home, so not sure entirely why you keep mentioning traders and hedge funds that were at fault when it was really badly rated products sold to retail banks that were the real cause.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7521250.stm

The regulation was given to the FSA by Miliband, Balls and Brown (they were proud of that) I don't and can't understand the reason why they thought it to be for the best to take it off BoE who actually knew how to regulate.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/...

Video was here of the 1997 documentary of them doing it, seems like its been removed (wonder who wanted that one).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11...

Would you like more?

I'd hate to upset you again, but thats naive, The banks had a large amount of toxic debt and it wasn't great for the end of year statement, but they'd been holding debt at slightly less for a number of years without the balloon bursting, they still hold quite a lot today.
The traders saw a run of confidence in the banks and made it a thousand times worse by short selling till there was almost, and I say almost a trader organised destabilisation of banking confidence. I suspect quite a few saw it as a profit making opportunity. They didn't cause the cliff to appear but they did seem to do their fair share of pushing the banks over it.

Obviously its a cyclical cause and effect scenario, but for you to say the traders had no part in the collapse is just laughable.

Well to me anyway, as ignorant as I am of all things trader related

[Beanoir]

Intersting how this argument always seems to revolve around whether it's the banks at fault or the Govt.

I like to think that one day we will take responsibility for our own actions, the 'toxic debt' was created by those borrowing too much on the never never with little chance of repaying it...beause they needed a Rangie on the driveway.

[Du1point8]

julian64 said:

I'd hate to upset you again, but thats naive, The banks had a large amount of toxic debt and it wasn't great for the end of year statement, but they'd been holding debt at slightly less for a number of years without the balloon bursting, they still hold quite a lot today.
The traders saw a run of confidence in the banks and made it a thousand times worse by short selling till there was almost, and I say almost a trader organised destabilisation of banking confidence. I suspect quite a few saw it as a profit making opportunity. They didn't cause the cliff to appear but they did seem to do their fair share of pushing the banks over it.

Obviously its a cyclical cause and effect scenario, but for you to say the traders had no part in the collapse is just laughable.

Well to me anyway, as ignorant as I am of all things trader related

Ah yes those famous investment banks that needed bailing out.

Northern Rock.
HBOS who caused Lloyds bail out as they stepped in to take the bullet.
RBS was caused by buying ABN Amro which stretched it too thin after buying 26 companies in 7 years.
Bradford and Bingley.

Yes those pesky traders in those investment banks have a lot to answer for.

[Du1point8]

Beanoir said:

Intersting how this argument always seems to revolve around whether it's the banks at fault or the Govt.

I like to think that one day we will take responsibility for our own actions, the 'toxic debt' was created by those borrowing too much on the never never with little chance of repaying it...beause they needed a Rangie on the driveway.

I know that, you know that... government and the people borrowing couldn't accept that, then blame the banks for the lending... then decide to penalise people in the investment banks as they are all classed as bankers.

Same people now come back and blame the banks again as they won't lend to them or they can't have 125% mortgages anymore.

I read somewhere that the government at the time put lots of pressure on the banks to lend as its the publics right to have a property, even if they can't afford it.

[anonymous-user]

julian64 said:

I think it remains that its a very sad thing that we have lost all manufacturing industry in this country.

Complete bollocks. You make more now than you ever have and with far fewer people. The simple fact is you're actually really, really good at making things.

Inflation adjusted index of production;