Who will you be voting for in the General election?

[speedy_thrills]

Du1point8 said:

speedy_thrills said:

otolith said:

If people want to live in that kind of society, why not just move there?

I think climate, language (which is likely to limit your career go some extent) and not being aware of the local culture, laws, system put people off. Even moving to another English speaking country with a similar culture has challenges.

Its not often I see such crappy excuses as a reason not to move to Scandinavian countries as what you posted, will take Finland as the example.

Climate - +30C in summer and usually -10 to -20C in winter, yet all resources still work and its not an issue.
Language - Not an issue in most jobs as they realise that only having 4.5 million people means they need to know english, or will lose out.
Culture - Generally honest, hard working, don't like slackers.
Laws - Same as most of the UK, except if caught speeding its based on salary.
System - Fully working even in snow and rain.
Alcohol - My god its expensive.
Food - Very Expensive.
Property - reasonably cheap.
Cars - Expensive even for 2nd hand models.
Education - Amazing.
Salaries - Quite good.
Health care - Free for people that live there.

So what stops people in the UK going there? Not a scooby why...

I will be moving there in a few years as Im not having my children using the UK education system, not a fking chance.

Interesting, especially about being able to pick up a job without much Finnish which would have been...some impediment to most of us .

Actually I live...and have lived outside the UK most of my life anyway so I'm pretty sold on this living abroad thing.

[Du1point8]

speedy_thrills said:

Du1point8 said:

speedy_thrills said:

otolith said:

If people want to live in that kind of society, why not just move there?

I think climate, language (which is likely to limit your career go some extent) and not being aware of the local culture, laws, system put people off. Even moving to another English speaking country with a similar culture has challenges.

Its not often I see such crappy excuses as a reason not to move to Scandinavian countries as what you posted, will take Finland as the example.

Climate - +30C in summer and usually -10 to -20C in winter, yet all resources still work and its not an issue.
Language - Not an issue in most jobs as they realise that only having 4.5 million people means they need to know english, or will lose out.
Culture - Generally honest, hard working, don't like slackers.
Laws - Same as most of the UK, except if caught speeding its based on salary.
System - Fully working even in snow and rain.
Alcohol - My god its expensive.
Food - Very Expensive.
Property - reasonably cheap.
Cars - Expensive even for 2nd hand models.
Education - Amazing.
Salaries - Quite good.
Health care - Free for people that live there.

So what stops people in the UK going there? Not a scooby why...

I will be moving there in a few years as Im not having my children using the UK education system, not a fking chance.

Interesting, especially about being able to pick up a job without much Finnish which would have been...some impediment to most of us .

Actually I live...and have lived outside the UK most of my life anyway so I'm pretty sold on this living abroad thing.

My OH's cousin's husband who I have known for 8 years is Canadian, he works for a Finnish company (quite high up with some reporting minions too) and has done for many years, his total language skills in Finnish.... None.

I know of at least half a dozen more that are in the same boat...

I will be too in a couple of years.

[IainT]

Du1point8 said:

Digga said:

Bradgate said:

I am advocating Scandinavian style Social Democracy, which demonstrably works, rather than totalitarian communism which, as you correctly point out, managed the impressive feat of impoverishing a country full of Germans.

WOuld this be liek "zombie" Norway or deeply divided Sweden?

I wouldn't waste your time... Bradgate ignored it when I wrote about Norway last time and still is in love with their idea.

Why does it always have to be that fairness is always the people who try (ambitious/hard working) need to support those that don't? What is exactly fair about that?

My wife's Swedish and this view of a "deeply divided" Sweden is largely exaggerated. Their social democracy does work, largely, like all countries there are problems and, like all countries, there are differing views on how things should be done.

What is utterly undeniable is that the lot of the 'average' Swede is better than here and that as a general population they view the collective good as more important than individual gain.

If we could maintain decent economic foundations with a more collectiveist view I think the UK could be an even greater place to live than it is. It needs wealth generation to be available to all and not quite so concentrated in the top % through stringer wages, lower taxation at the bottom. That will only come through strong economy though which is why the 'left' are not a viable option.

[Du1point8]

IainT said:

Du1point8 said:

Digga said:

Bradgate said:

I am advocating Scandinavian style Social Democracy, which demonstrably works, rather than totalitarian communism which, as you correctly point out, managed the impressive feat of impoverishing a country full of Germans.

WOuld this be liek "zombie" Norway or deeply divided Sweden?

I wouldn't waste your time... Bradgate ignored it when I wrote about Norway last time and still is in love with their idea.

Why does it always have to be that fairness is always the people who try (ambitious/hard working) need to support those that don't? What is exactly fair about that?

My wife's Swedish and this view of a "deeply divided" Sweden is largely exaggerated. Their social democracy does work, largely, like all countries there are problems and, like all countries, there are differing views on how things should be done.

What is utterly undeniable is that the lot of the 'average' Swede is better than here and that as a general population they view the collective good as more important than individual gain.

If we could maintain decent economic foundations with a more collectiveist view I think the UK could be an even greater place to live than it is. It needs wealth generation to be available to all and not quite so concentrated in the top % through stringer wages, lower taxation at the bottom. That will only come through strong economy though which is why the 'left' are not a viable option.

True, but its not difficult to generate wealth from scratch... I have a company that is 18 months old now and its generating a nice 4-5 figure (depending on the month) turnover, I did this as a 2nd job to supplement my income and give myself a nest egg.

So if I can do this and work hard to make it happen, why should I get penalised for having that drive so that I can give more of my hard earned cash to someone who has no drive?

[IainT]

Du1point8 said:

IainT said:

Du1point8 said:

Digga said:

Bradgate said:

I am advocating Scandinavian style Social Democracy, which demonstrably works, rather than totalitarian communism which, as you correctly point out, managed the impressive feat of impoverishing a country full of Germans.

WOuld this be liek "zombie" Norway or deeply divided Sweden?

I wouldn't waste your time... Bradgate ignored it when I wrote about Norway last time and still is in love with their idea.

Why does it always have to be that fairness is always the people who try (ambitious/hard working) need to support those that don't? What is exactly fair about that?

My wife's Swedish and this view of a "deeply divided" Sweden is largely exaggerated. Their social democracy does work, largely, like all countries there are problems and, like all countries, there are differing views on how things should be done.

What is utterly undeniable is that the lot of the 'average' Swede is better than here and that as a general population they view the collective good as more important than individual gain.

If we could maintain decent economic foundations with a more collectiveist view I think the UK could be an even greater place to live than it is. It needs wealth generation to be available to all and not quite so concentrated in the top % through stringer wages, lower taxation at the bottom. That will only come through strong economy though which is why the 'left' are not a viable option.

True, but its not difficult to generate wealth from scratch... I have a company that is 18 months old now and its generating a nice 4-5 figure (depending on the month) turnover, I did this as a 2nd job to supplement my income and give myself a nest egg.

So if I can do this and work hard to make it happen, why should I get penalised for having that drive so that I can give more of my hard earned cash to someone who has no drive?

By penalised do you mean taxed? If so then of course you should, as am I.

If by penalised you mean taxed to the point it's not worth doing then clearly not - it'd be counterproductive.

The key is to set taxation at a point that can support a healthy (in the big picture sense rather than just 'not ill') society without hamstringing entrepreneurial endeavor. Equally those of us who earn significantly higher income have a duty to pay higher taxes - not as a % but in real terms by dint of earning more.

Personally I don't mind that my tax bill this year will be higher than last - I'm earning more. If I were earning less and paying more i'd feel aggrieved.

[Du1point8]

IainT said:

Du1point8 said:

IainT said:

Du1point8 said:

Digga said:

Bradgate said:

I am advocating Scandinavian style Social Democracy, which demonstrably works, rather than totalitarian communism which, as you correctly point out, managed the impressive feat of impoverishing a country full of Germans.

WOuld this be liek "zombie" Norway or deeply divided Sweden?

I wouldn't waste your time... Bradgate ignored it when I wrote about Norway last time and still is in love with their idea.

Why does it always have to be that fairness is always the people who try (ambitious/hard working) need to support those that don't? What is exactly fair about that?

My wife's Swedish and this view of a "deeply divided" Sweden is largely exaggerated. Their social democracy does work, largely, like all countries there are problems and, like all countries, there are differing views on how things should be done.

What is utterly undeniable is that the lot of the 'average' Swede is better than here and that as a general population they view the collective good as more important than individual gain.

If we could maintain decent economic foundations with a more collectiveist view I think the UK could be an even greater place to live than it is. It needs wealth generation to be available to all and not quite so concentrated in the top % through stringer wages, lower taxation at the bottom. That will only come through strong economy though which is why the 'left' are not a viable option.

True, but its not difficult to generate wealth from scratch... I have a company that is 18 months old now and its generating a nice 4-5 figure (depending on the month) turnover, I did this as a 2nd job to supplement my income and give myself a nest egg.

So if I can do this and work hard to make it happen, why should I get penalised for having that drive so that I can give more of my hard earned cash to someone who has no drive?

By penalised do you mean taxed? If so then of course you should, as am I.

If by penalised you mean taxed to the point it's not worth doing then clearly not - it'd be counterproductive.

The key is to set taxation at a point that can support a healthy (in the big picture sense rather than just 'not ill') society without hamstringing entrepreneurial endeavor. Equally those of us who earn significantly higher income have a duty to pay higher taxes - not as a % but in real terms by dint of earning more.

Personally I don't mind that my tax bill this year will be higher than last - I'm earning more. If I were earning less and paying more i'd feel aggrieved.

Thats another thing that aggravates me.

Tax... why is it not a flat rate? Its unfair that someone on £100k is paying 7 times the amount of someone on £25k yet only earns 4 times the amount.

If it were fair the person on £100k would pay £20k in tax.

Don't get me started on the glitch at £120k that means after earning £20k more than someone on £100k, you only get paid into your pocket £7.2k... They take £12.8k off you in tax and the clawback.

[LimaDelta]

Du1point8 said:

My OH's cousin's husband who I have known for 8 years is Canadian, he works for a Finnish company (quite high up with some reporting minions too) and has done for many years, his total language skills in Finnish.... None.

I know of at least half a dozen more that are in the same boat...

I will be too in a couple of years.

Indeed. One of the guys I work with is Finnish, and doesn't speak a word. In fact, it is not even compulsory to teach the Finnish language in Finnish schools (though strangely is is to teach Swedish).

Slightly off-topic though.

[Esseesse]

IainT said:

If we could maintain decent economic foundations with a more collectiveist view I think the UK could be an even greater place to live than it is.

My understanding is what has made the UK a great place historically has been the opposite, while much of Europe drowned in some form of awful collectivism.

[Axionknight]

We'll be executing the Kulaks next.

[turbobloke]

Esseesse said:

IainT said:

If we could maintain decent economic foundations with a more collectiveist view I think the UK could be an even greater place to live than it is.

My understanding is what has made the UK a great place historically has been the opposite, while much of Europe drowned in some form of awful collectivism.

Much of europe still is.

[IainT]

Du1point8 said:

Thats another thing that aggravates me.

Tax... why is it not a flat rate? Its unfair that someone on £100k is paying 7 times the amount of someone on £25k yet only earns 4 times the amount.

If it were fair the person on £100k would pay £20k in tax.

Don't get me started on the glitch at £120k that means after earning £20k more than someone on £100k, you only get paid into your pocket £7.2k... They take £12.8k off you in tax and the clawback.

Absolutely - flat rate tax is something incredibly fair with sensibly high threshold.

[IainT]

Esseesse said:

IainT said:

If we could maintain decent economic foundations with a more collectiveist view I think the UK could be an even greater place to live than it is.

My understanding is what has made the UK a great place historically has been the opposite, while much of Europe drowned in some form of awful collectivism.

Don't interpret collectivism as some communist ideal rather the decision by the individual to do what's best for society in the long term with the understanding that the goal of society is to improve the 'wellness' of the individual.

Swedish people seem to generally put the benefit of society ahead in importance than the benefit of the individual. Anecdotally from the in laws and extended family the issues are almost wholly around immigrants not sharing that societal view.

[thetapeworm]

Still very much undecided - I'd just like to be in a position to vote for a team of people who have the best real-world experience to make decisions for the future of the country rather than some career politician that is fed speeches by a back-office team who have also elected to make politics a career on the basis a few corporations and other interested parties can give them the information they want us to hear.

I wish I knew more about politics and could actually apply this to something meaningful come election time but it just feels like anything I do will be a lost vote and things will continue as they are. I don't tend to want huge changes, I'm relatively happy with life, I just feel under represented with the few (selfish?) things I care about.

Last time around I tried to read all the manifestos from the short-list I'd drawn up, I'm not sure I can face that again.