David Cameron: The NHS is - safe in my hands
Discussion
Firstly politicians need to grow some balls and start managing our expectations, it is there to keep us alive, free from pain and able to work. Secondly we need to learn that they don't have a magic wand and only use it when we really need it and turn up to every appointment we make. Thirdly the managers need to learn that they are ONLY there to enable the clinicians to work their miracles. Lastly in return for them doing there best you should not be able to sue them when they prove there are merely mortal.
I wonder how much the labour party lawyers friends subsidise there mercs and Champaign at the NHS expense.
I wonder how much the labour party lawyers friends subsidise there mercs and Champaign at the NHS expense.
Smiler. said:
I haven't yet established a firm opinion of exactly how I think the problems should be addressed. There is one thing though.
Politicians who kick the issue of the NHS about like a football should actually spend some time in hospital. They might not be so quick to bandy their uninformed politically motivated opinions about as fact if they did. This particularly applies to the champagne socialist party.
Well they would have a brilliant experience because they would go private of course! Sully themselves alongside the rest if us? You have to be joking right? Politicians who kick the issue of the NHS about like a football should actually spend some time in hospital. They might not be so quick to bandy their uninformed politically motivated opinions about as fact if they did. This particularly applies to the champagne socialist party.
Richie200 said:
This type of thinking really shocks me. I just cannot understand where this idea comes from. The NHS is absolutely shockingly bad by any matrix you care to measure it by. As an example I twisted my ankle and fractured a bone and was seen within One minute of entering the hospital by a Doctor, 5 mins later was at the X=Ray dept, I was then 2 minutes later given the X-rays to take back to the Doctor, I was then given an injection, fitted a cast, wrote a report and I was in and out within 1hour with a set of crutches in hand. This was about a year ago. I had a similar problem yesterday and again was all sorted within an hour.
This is on the German State system. My experience in France and Turkey is similar. I have no idea where this notion that the NHS is the best in the world comes from. Every time I had the pleasure of using it, it was a nightmare.
How many times have you fractured your fThis is on the German State system. My experience in France and Turkey is similar. I have no idea where this notion that the NHS is the best in the world comes from. Every time I had the pleasure of using it, it was a nightmare.
king ankle you clumsy git? 
I don't think it is safe in anyone's hands really, they are all a bunch of liars who will say whatever they think people want to hear to get voted in.
The only way the NHS will improve IMHO is when someone takes out half the useless managers who p**s away money and throw away more paying off people who blow the whistle on the waste and incompetence.
The only way the NHS will improve IMHO is when someone takes out half the useless managers who p**s away money and throw away more paying off people who blow the whistle on the waste and incompetence.
98elise said:
The NHS is fked.
I currently have two relatives in hospital is sickening to see the way they are treated. Their symptoms are ignored and they are both soiling themselves regularly. One is complanining that the call button never works (we've complained about it 3 times so far) and the other is clearly suffering from a mental issue but we just get nowhere.
How can things be so bad that the hospital is there, the staff are there, but they just ignore their patients.
Appologies is this badly written, but I've had a few tonight to get over a month of NHS crap.
I've experienced the exact same thing, with relatives in similar conditions.ked.I currently have two relatives in hospital is sickening to see the way they are treated. Their symptoms are ignored and they are both soiling themselves regularly. One is complanining that the call button never works (we've complained about it 3 times so far) and the other is clearly suffering from a mental issue but we just get nowhere.
How can things be so bad that the hospital is there, the staff are there, but they just ignore their patients.
Appologies is this badly written, but I've had a few tonight to get over a month of NHS crap.
Plenty of nurses huddled around computers behind the desk while semi-conscious patients lie in their own faeces for over an hour.
I believe the NHS is probably ok if you turn up to A&E requiring stitches, it's ongoing care that is no good. Surprise surprise I think this is what Farage has said.
I don't know what has created this situation, I suspect it's setting targets. It seems to me that our problem in the UK is that we have stopped trusting people, we've decided we'd rather measure everybody in some kind of one-size-fits-all framework. All targets should be scrapped, nurses should just be instructed to nurse. Trust more senior nurses (matrons?) to decide what needs doing, by who, and asses if someone is no good for the job.
MacW said:
Richie200 said:
This type of thinking really shocks me. I just cannot understand where this idea comes from. The NHS is absolutely shockingly bad by any matrix you care to measure it by. As an example I twisted my ankle and fractured a bone and was seen within One minute of entering the hospital by a Doctor, 5 mins later was at the X=Ray dept, I was then 2 minutes later given the X-rays to take back to the Doctor, I was then given an injection, fitted a cast, wrote a report and I was in and out within 1hour with a set of crutches in hand. This was about a year ago. I had a similar problem yesterday and again was all sorted within an hour.
This is on the German State system. My experience in France and Turkey is similar. I have no idea where this notion that the NHS is the best in the world comes from. Every time I had the pleasure of using it, it was a nightmare.
How many times have you fractured your fThis is on the German State system. My experience in France and Turkey is similar. I have no idea where this notion that the NHS is the best in the world comes from. Every time I had the pleasure of using it, it was a nightmare.
king ankle you clumsy git? 
Esseesse said:
I've experienced the exact same thing, with relatives in similar conditions.
Plenty of nurses huddled around computers behind the desk while semi-conscious patients lie in their own faeces for over an hour.
I believe the NHS is probably ok if you turn up to A&E requiring stitches, it's ongoing care that is no good. Surprise surprise I think this is what Farage has said.
I don't know what has created this situation, I suspect it's setting targets. It seems to me that our problem in the UK is that we have stopped trusting people, we've decided we'd rather measure everybody in some kind of one-size-fits-all framework. All targets should be scrapped, nurses should just be instructed to nurse. Trust more senior nurses (matrons?) to decide what needs doing, by who, and asses if someone is no good for the job.
If you want some insight into the root causes of why the NHS is so costly while at the same time service not good as it should be when seen as an end to end process from the eyes of the patient you could do a lot worse than read some of Professor John Seddons books, eg Systems Thinking in the Public Sector And the Failure of the Reform Regime.Plenty of nurses huddled around computers behind the desk while semi-conscious patients lie in their own faeces for over an hour.
I believe the NHS is probably ok if you turn up to A&E requiring stitches, it's ongoing care that is no good. Surprise surprise I think this is what Farage has said.
I don't know what has created this situation, I suspect it's setting targets. It seems to me that our problem in the UK is that we have stopped trusting people, we've decided we'd rather measure everybody in some kind of one-size-fits-all framework. All targets should be scrapped, nurses should just be instructed to nurse. Trust more senior nurses (matrons?) to decide what needs doing, by who, and asses if someone is no good for the job.
Sounds heavy, but it is an easy read and clearly identifies management thinking in the form of silos, targets, budget heads etc as being the problem across the public sector. Management thinking of course at the top level in the NHS is the government who design the system and the measures used. "What gets measured gets done" is very true, hence people focus on what they are measured and incentivized on rather than the desired outcome.
NB. not just in the NHS.
The NHS is not safe under Labour; just look at the facts: Brown's appalling PFI deals set up during their 13 years of mismanagement, deals which will eventually bankrupt most of the affected hospitals; their swamping of the NHS with non-medical penpushers; their pay rises for the more senior penpushers and general mismanagement of funds. Just look at Labour's efforts to run NHS Wales. It's not looking good.
Esseesse said:
98elise said:
The NHS is fked.
I currently have two relatives in hospital is sickening to see the way they are treated. Their symptoms are ignored and they are both soiling themselves regularly. One is complanining that the call button never works (we've complained about it 3 times so far) and the other is clearly suffering from a mental issue but we just get nowhere.
How can things be so bad that the hospital is there, the staff are there, but they just ignore their patients.
Appologies is this badly written, but I've had a few tonight to get over a month of NHS crap.
I've experienced the exact same thing, with relatives in similar conditions.ked.I currently have two relatives in hospital is sickening to see the way they are treated. Their symptoms are ignored and they are both soiling themselves regularly. One is complanining that the call button never works (we've complained about it 3 times so far) and the other is clearly suffering from a mental issue but we just get nowhere.
How can things be so bad that the hospital is there, the staff are there, but they just ignore their patients.
Appologies is this badly written, but I've had a few tonight to get over a month of NHS crap.
Plenty of nurses huddled around computers behind the desk while semi-conscious patients lie in their own faeces for over an hour.
I believe the NHS is probably ok if you turn up to A&E requiring stitches, it's ongoing care that is no good. Surprise surprise I think this is what Farage has said.
I don't know what has created this situation, I suspect it's setting targets. It seems to me that our problem in the UK is that we have stopped trusting people, we've decided we'd rather measure everybody in some kind of one-size-fits-all framework. All targets should be scrapped, nurses should just be instructed to nurse. Trust more senior nurses (matrons?) to decide what needs doing, by who, and asses if someone is no good for the job.
kers should be bloody grateful I never get my hands on reforming the NHS, then they would have something to cry about!The problem is the electorate seem to love the NHS. Most seem to believe the only alternative is a US privatised system
The fact is the UK system is a unique as the American system
For those interested here are description of a number of other European systems all of which cost little more than UK health care costs and have much better outcomes.
http://www.civitas.org.uk/nhs/health_systems.php
The fact is the UK system is a unique as the American system
For those interested here are description of a number of other European systems all of which cost little more than UK health care costs and have much better outcomes.
http://www.civitas.org.uk/nhs/health_systems.php
Du1point8 said:
Labour started the privatisation of the NHS in 1999 under the disguise of choice and competition, now it says its wrong and wants to go back on its word?
Not correct - I've worked in the NHS since the 80s and Mrs T brought in competition when the NHS Trusts were starting to be formed around 1990/91. The "internal market", it was called. Ultimately both major parties want to "privatise" the NHS to a degree. Where they lie is when they keep saying they want to retain an NHS. I don't think either of them actually do.
Edited by Flip Martian on Thursday 2nd April 10:12
oyster said:
I always find it odd when people think clinical staff should be doing management tasks instead of managers.
I'd rather have clinical staff doing patient care and let managers do the managing.
Though do accept there needs to be less of them.
That's because the 'management' you're thinking of is what a pen-pusher does behind a desk (David Brent).I'd rather have clinical staff doing patient care and let managers do the managing.
Though do accept there needs to be less of them.
Clinical staff are the best people to be 'managing', in the same way you do not need to be managed into how to organise your Easter weekend activities. It doesn't require a desk, just someone who understands what needs doing.
Esseesse said:
oyster said:
I always find it odd when people think clinical staff should be doing management tasks instead of managers.
I'd rather have clinical staff doing patient care and let managers do the managing.
Though do accept there needs to be less of them.
That's because the 'management' you're thinking of is what a pen-pusher does behind a desk (David Brent).I'd rather have clinical staff doing patient care and let managers do the managing.
Though do accept there needs to be less of them.
Clinical staff are the best people to be 'managing', in the same way you do not need to be managed into how to organise your Easter weekend activities. It doesn't require a desk, just someone who understands what needs doing.
Mrr T said:
The problem is the electorate seem to love the NHS. Most seem to believe the only alternative is a US privatised system
The fact is the UK system is a unique as the American system
For those interested here are description of a number of other European systems all of which cost little more than UK health care costs and have much better outcomes.
http://www.civitas.org.uk/nhs/health_systems.php
ThisThe fact is the UK system is a unique as the American system
For those interested here are description of a number of other European systems all of which cost little more than UK health care costs and have much better outcomes.
http://www.civitas.org.uk/nhs/health_systems.php
The comparison with the US system has been made on this thread, but the true comparisons are with the rest of western Europe.
Labour are relying on the idiocy of the electorate in pretending an extra 1-2 bn would solve all the NHS's problems, when this less than a week's budget.
Richie200 said:
This type of thinking really shocks me. I just cannot understand where this idea comes from. The NHS is absolutely shockingly bad by any matrix you care to measure it by. As an example I twisted my ankle and fractured a bone and was seen within One minute of entering the hospital by a Doctor, 5 mins later was at the X=Ray dept, I was then 2 minutes later given the X-rays to take back to the Doctor, I was then given an injection, fitted a cast, wrote a report and I was in and out within 1hour with a set of crutches in hand. This was about a year ago. I had a similar problem yesterday and again was all sorted within an hour.
This is on the German State system. My experience in France and Turkey is similar. I have no idea where this notion that the NHS is the best in the world comes from. Every time I had the pleasure of using it, it was a nightmare.
you do realise the '4 hour target' in A+E is triaged, investigated , seen by a Practitioner , treated and discharged don't you ... and that many people who present with a minor injury , especially if they go to a minor injuries service have their entire episode concluded in a far shorter period ... This is on the German State system. My experience in France and Turkey is similar. I have no idea where this notion that the NHS is the best in the world comes from. Every time I had the pleasure of using it, it was a nightmare.
the Franco-German system also doesn't have Emergency Departments in the way the Anglosphere does due to the way in which their resuscitation medicine services work ...
walk / hobble / be wheeled into the vast majority of NHS A+E depts or Minor injuries services your experience may well be in the same kind of time frame except you are likely to be seen by a Master prepared Nurse Practitioner with a minor injury of that nature .
Guybrush said:
The NHS is not safe under Labour; just look at the facts: Brown's appalling PFI deals set up during their 13 years of mismanagement, deals which will eventually bankrupt most of the affected hospitals; their swamping of the NHS with non-medical penpushers; their pay rises for the more senior penpushers and general mismanagement of funds. Just look at Labour's efforts to run NHS Wales. It's not looking good.
ExactlyGodalmighty83 said:
Nickyboy said:
As good as the NHS is i for one would welcome private healthcare like they have in America
The US system is horrific in terms of costs and efficiency, even as a private system the US taxpayer still spends more per patient then an equivalent UK payer as the 'competition' of making it a open market system has resulted in massively inflated prices. It is by far the worst system in use by any developed nation in the world and should be taken as lesson for all in the dangers of private care on a national scale.
My experiences and anecdotes of the NHS are all good, that's just the way the cookie crumbles sometimes.
it's the any two of three dilemma , and unfortunately Labour 1997-2010 pushed for quick and cheap as a crowd pleaser ...
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