David Cameron: The NHS is - safe in my hands
Discussion
mph1977 said:
Guybrush said:
The NHS is not safe under Labour; just look at the facts: Brown's appalling PFI deals set up during their 13 years of mismanagement, deals which will eventually bankrupt most of the affected hospitals; their swamping of the NHS with non-medical penpushers; their pay rises for the more senior penpushers and general mismanagement of funds. Just look at Labour's efforts to run NHS Wales. It's not looking good.
ExactlyAnd it's not lack of funding either. With double the budget they would be just as disorganised. Any half decent staff just get fed up working in the Welsh NHS and leave to work in England.
JagLover said:
Mrr T said:
The problem is the electorate seem to love the NHS. Most seem to believe the only alternative is a US privatised system
The fact is the UK system is a unique as the American system
For those interested here are description of a number of other European systems all of which cost little more than UK health care costs and have much better outcomes.
http://www.civitas.org.uk/nhs/health_systems.php
ThisThe fact is the UK system is a unique as the American system
For those interested here are description of a number of other European systems all of which cost little more than UK health care costs and have much better outcomes.
http://www.civitas.org.uk/nhs/health_systems.php
The comparison with the US system has been made on this thread, but the true comparisons are with the rest of western Europe.
Labour are relying on the idiocy of the electorate in pretending an extra 1-2 bn would solve all the NHS's problems, when this less than a week's budget.
| COUNTRY | USD PPP |
|---|---|
| Norway | 5,669 |
| Switzerland | 5,643 |
| Netherlands | 5,099 |
| Austria | 4,546 |
| Germany | 4,495 |
| Denmark | 4,448 |
| Luxembourg | 4,246 |
| France | 4,118 |
| Belguim | 4,061 |
| Sweden | 3,925 |
| Ireland | 3,700 |
| UK | 3,405 |
| Spain | 3,072 |
| Italy | 3,012 |
| Portugal | 2,619 |
| Greece | 2,361 |
For reference, the US' spend is 8,508 by the same measure.
If my maths is right, that puts France and Germany's spend at 20% more and 32% more respectively.
And Labour's pledge is 2.5 bn (on top of the Conservative's plans) not 1-2. God knows how they plan to fund it though. Probably another 'mansion tax'
Edited by budgie smuggler on Thursday 2nd April 10:42
Esseesse said:
Plenty of nurses huddled around computers behind the desk while semi-conscious patients lie in their own faeces for over an hour.
No offence intended to you or your relatives and what they went through but this subject jumped out at me generally speaking.In order to improve care, how do we, as a nation, motivate and recruit people to perform these kinds of tasks day in day out?
Who would want to be a nurse or care assistant? What would it take?
Im guessing it would take big £££s as a salary for someone to consider it day in day out... and there is the problem
menousername said:
No offence intended to you or your relatives and what they went through but this subject jumped out at me generally speaking.
In order to improve care, how do we, as a nation, motivate and recruit people to perform these kinds of tasks day in day out?
Who would want to be a nurse or care assistant? What would it take?
Im guessing it would take big £££s as a salary for someone to consider it day in day out... and there is the problem
Registered NurseIn order to improve care, how do we, as a nation, motivate and recruit people to perform these kinds of tasks day in day out?
Who would want to be a nurse or care assistant? What would it take?
Im guessing it would take big £££s as a salary for someone to consider it day in day out... and there is the problem
Band 5 - start at £21,388, rising to £27,901
Bands 7 to 9 - £30,764 - £98,453.
Care Assistant
Average £14,000
Perhaps nurses feel that wiping a backside is beneath them?
barryrs said:
Registered Nurse
Band 5 - start at £21,388, rising to £27,901
Bands 7 to 9 - £30,764 - £98,453.
Care Assistant
Average £14,000
Perhaps nurses feel that wiping a backside is beneath them?
known a few nurses... Band 5 in London, start off at the bottom of the Band and barely move up... to move up to the next band usually requires a masters or something, which they cannot afford, financially or in timeBand 5 - start at £21,388, rising to £27,901
Bands 7 to 9 - £30,764 - £98,453.
Care Assistant
Average £14,000
Perhaps nurses feel that wiping a backside is beneath them?
98k is probably doctor level or equivalent
as you say, ave for care assistants is 14k
you answered my question for me...me...personally...wouldnt do it for 98k let alone low 20s
menousername said:
Esseesse said:
Plenty of nurses huddled around computers behind the desk while semi-conscious patients lie in their own faeces for over an hour.
No offence intended to you or your relatives and what they went through but this subject jumped out at me generally speaking.In order to improve care, how do we, as a nation, motivate and recruit people to perform these kinds of tasks day in day out?
Who would want to be a nurse or care assistant? What would it take?
Im guessing it would take big £££s as a salary for someone to consider it day in day out... and there is the problem
Yes the scenario described above may be something that doesn't sound appealing (of course there will be other more appealing things to deal with too, it's not only dying people), but it's not difficult for someone of average intelligence to deal with, especially after a little hands on training with older hands.
This means that there are a large number of people who could make very good nurses, especially if the role was pared back to what it used to be. I don't know precisely how much a new nurse earns, but surely it's north of £20k (with some prospects)? If I had no scientific/academic ability/other interests I would take that any day over £14k to man a supermarket checkout. Also I think many nurses (the good ones) are motivated by a desire to help people, it's not just about money.
Edited by Esseesse on Thursday 2nd April 12:31
Martin4x4 said:
Given he seems to be once again applying the big lie theory nothing he promises in this election can be believed.
Two things on this.The first is that is easy to forget that at the last election, Cameron was making pledges on the basis that the Conservatives would win power. They didn't, they had to share that with the LibDems and the process of shared government means that not all the things promised prior could be delivered under that arrangement.
Secondly, at election time, every single party leader is forced to make promises and pledges about things that can and often are affected by may external factors that can not always be foreseen and over which governments have no control whatsoever. There's not a single person on earth that can predict where the global and UK economy will be in say three years time. Some are good at guessing but there is no absolute crystal ball for looking into the future.
Every party leader is in the same boat.
menousername said:
No offence intended to you or your relatives and what they went through but this subject jumped out at me generally speaking.
In order to improve care, how do we, as a nation, motivate and recruit people to perform these kinds of tasks day in day out?
Who would want to be a nurse or care assistant? What would it take?
Im guessing it would take big £££s as a salary for someone to consider it day in day out... and there is the problem
that would be huddled over the computer completing records, ordering tests , making referrals, reviewing results etc ... In order to improve care, how do we, as a nation, motivate and recruit people to perform these kinds of tasks day in day out?
Who would want to be a nurse or care assistant? What would it take?
Im guessing it would take big £££s as a salary for someone to consider it day in day out... and there is the problem
unfortunately there is a problem in some places with HCAs expecting RNs to do half the 'any person' work as well as all of the RN only work .
Esseesse said:
No it wouldn't, and this is part of the problem. It's so incredibly un-PC to point out that you don't need to be some kind of gifted academic to be a nurse, nobody will. People should not go to university in order to become a nurse.
Yes the scenario described above may be something that doesn't sound appealing (of course there will be other more appealing things to deal with too, it's not only dying people), but it's not difficult for someone of average intelligence to deal with, especially after a little hands on training with older hands.
This means that there are a large number of people who could make very good nurses, especially if the role was pared back to what it used to be. I don't know precisely how much a new nurse earns, but surely it's north of £20k (with some prospects)? If I had no scientific/academic ability/other interests I would take that any day over £14k to man a supermarket checkout. Also I think many nurses (the good ones) are motivated by a desire to help people, it's not just about money.
we are in agreement... and happy to be corrected but I think we are moving to a situation where nurses will be expected to have a degree before they can get started in the profession so it makes the earning potential even more of a factorYes the scenario described above may be something that doesn't sound appealing (of course there will be other more appealing things to deal with too, it's not only dying people), but it's not difficult for someone of average intelligence to deal with, especially after a little hands on training with older hands.
This means that there are a large number of people who could make very good nurses, especially if the role was pared back to what it used to be. I don't know precisely how much a new nurse earns, but surely it's north of £20k (with some prospects)? If I had no scientific/academic ability/other interests I would take that any day over £14k to man a supermarket checkout. Also I think many nurses (the good ones) are motivated by a desire to help people, it's not just about money.
Edited by Esseesse on Thursday 2nd April 12:31
on the flip side you can only really expect people to perform those roles while the deem it to be worth the salary... if their situation changes or improves they may move on... natural turn over... but do we want a situation where we have poor people stuck in menial roles with no prospect of a better life? That makes for a depressed and unmotivated work force.
so a solution would be to allow people who have no alternative to come in at that level, but to allow them to move up and on...and replace them with the same...rather than having a nursing crisis, and a recruitment crisis in addition to a funding crisis, with huge wastage, recruiting from all corners of the globe and also using locums and agencies to plug perceived gaps... we are just going round in circles
maybe progression happens here and there but as I said... the nurses I have known have been languishing at the bottom of the same band they started on... no hopes for progression unless they take a masters they cannot afford... financially they cannot really have any quality of life, time-wise they cannot have any quality of life. If they were able to progress into more meaningful work, the team would be fresh, motivated, and dynamic, I believe.
barryrs said:
Registered Nurse
Band 5 - start at £21,388, rising to £27,901
Bands 7 to 9 - £30,764 - £98,453.
Care Assistant
Average £14,000
Perhaps nurses feel that wiping a backside is beneath them?
Band 5 is where you will find most 'Staff Nurses' working on a ward - this is a graduate entry role now , and anyone who qualified i nthe last 20 or so years has a DipHE at least (2/3rds of a degree) although many will have topped up to a degree i ntheir own time as well as doing a Level 6 or 7 trainer qualification partially in their own time ( as it's in the full competence criteria for band 5 and it's required for an area to have student Nurses and trainee HCAs).Band 5 - start at £21,388, rising to £27,901
Bands 7 to 9 - £30,764 - £98,453.
Care Assistant
Average £14,000
Perhaps nurses feel that wiping a backside is beneath them?
Band 6 is a small proportion of Staff Nurses in specialised areas ( not all in trusts) or the 'junior' Sister / Charge Nurse who performs a 'Frontline Manager' role
There will be half to one band 7 per ward ' Senior' Sister/ CN or 'ward Matron
most of the masters prepared clinical specialist Nurses are also band 7
Band 8 are managers except the few Nurse consultants
Band 9 rarely happens for Nurses or AHPs outside the very largest trusts where the Assistant Directors of Nursing/ Divisional DoN have directorates the size of the entire Nursing staff in a more modest trust
As I mentioned in a previous post there is an issue in some places with HCAs who do not accept that they will be bdoing more than half of the 'any person ' work to all oew the RNs to do RN only work ...
Nevermind the patients and visotors who walk past HCAs doing 'busy work' and interrupt RNs while doing meds or completing referrals / requests / notes ...
budgie smuggler said:
...
And Labour's pledge is 2.5 bn (on top of the Conservative's plans) not 1-2. God knows how they plan to fund it though. Probably another 'mansion tax'
And Labour's pledge is 2.5 bn (on top of the Conservative's plans) not 1-2. God knows how they plan to fund it though. Probably another 'mansion tax'
Edited by budgie smuggler on Thursday 2nd April 10:42
My current labour MP in an election campaign letter dated last month said:
If the Labour Party wins the election on 7th May we will introduce a tax on mansions worth over £2million and use the money raised to hire 20,000 more nurses, 8,000 more GPs, 3,000 more midwives and 5,000 more care workers. No more understaffing, no more long waits, no more rushed visits.
Never a truer word spoken in jest, budgie smuggler! The next paragraph is utter guff about GP surgeries and promising stuff/ideas/policies which already exist locally in primary care...
This MP has no idea about the NHS
- and yet he's campaigning on the basis of improving it 
.aw51 121565 said:
Never a truer word spoken in jest, budgie smuggler!
The next paragraph is utter guff about GP surgeries and promising stuff/ideas/policies which already exist locally in primary care...
This MP has no idea about the NHS - and yet he's campaigning on the basis of improving it .
where are they goingto find these Nurses from ? The next paragraph is utter guff about GP surgeries and promising stuff/ideas/policies which already exist locally in primary care...
This MP has no idea about the NHS
- and yet he's campaigning on the basis of improving it .many of the Nurses with active registrations who choose not to work in Nursing full time wouldn't come back for band 5 and especially not for bottom increment ...
imports even from the EU at least a year flash to bang if not longer to be fully effective, ditto with return to practice, none EU imports longer unless you manage to get and keep 'old commonwealth' staff - but they aren;t going to come to the UK for band 5 money ...
New nurses 4 - 5 years to come on stream assuming enough placements to be found
people will apply via UCAS this September to January for entry in Sept 16 or spring 17 to a three year course ...
Martin4x4 said:
Remembers David Cameron promising "The NHS is safe in my hands"!
Given he seems to be once again applying the big lie theory nothing he promises in this election can be believed.
--- edit to fix link ---
Well it's safer in his hands than the other shower who are intent on bankrupting the country (which would take the NHS with it). Thank goodness for Cameron & coGiven he seems to be once again applying the big lie theory nothing he promises in this election can be believed.
--- edit to fix link ---
Edited by Martin4x4 on Thursday 2nd April 12:48
anonymous said:
[redacted]
whidh few staff actually recieve a full pension due to career breaks and part time working ... anonymous said:
[redacted]
I think someone has been pulling your chain there anonymous said:
[redacted]
salary sacrifice for vouchers is available ot any organisation , trusts running their own or bulk buying isd a commercial decision ... anonymous said:
[redacted]
it's the peter principle that is the problem it's rare to see people go back down voluntarily , unless it;s someone who promoted young through matronage coming back part time after Maternity . also an assumption that you've got to do X amount of time in each grade
anonymous said:
[redacted]
so a Bachelor's degree with 2300 hours of university and 2300 hours of assessed practice in a variety of clinical settings is a 'low entry threshold' you also have to remember that there is no assurance of promotion beyond band 5.
A pension is hardly worth becoming a nurse for. NHS pensions, along with most others, aren't what they once were (not saying that's wrong either - just stating a fact).
Saying some nurses can earn 98k a year is like saying some admin staff can earn 98k a year. Its a very broad umbrella and 98k nurses aren't really nurses as most people would understand the term, I would imagine. They're senior senior managers in a specialised area of the NHS business.
Saying some nurses can earn 98k a year is like saying some admin staff can earn 98k a year. Its a very broad umbrella and 98k nurses aren't really nurses as most people would understand the term, I would imagine. They're senior senior managers in a specialised area of the NHS business.
Flip Martian said:
A pension is hardly worth becoming a nurse for. NHS pensions, along with most others, aren't what they once were (not saying that's wrong either - just stating a fact).
Saying some nurses can earn 98k a year is like saying some admin staff can earn 98k a year. Its a very broad umbrella and 98k nurses aren't really nurses as most people would understand the term, I would imagine. They're senior senior managers in a specialised area of the NHS business.
Yes but lets get realistic in most parts of the country £98k a year is a fecking fortune, £50k a year would put you on very good money compared to most. So lets forget the extremes. Saying some nurses can earn 98k a year is like saying some admin staff can earn 98k a year. Its a very broad umbrella and 98k nurses aren't really nurses as most people would understand the term, I would imagine. They're senior senior managers in a specialised area of the NHS business.
I reckon most nurses are fairly well paid for the job they do, and are qualified to do.
It seems odd to me that a lot of public sector workers seem to think that in the private sector we all skip happily into work gleeful at the prospect of another day. Nurses feel underpaid and are demoralised? Guess what, so are 99% of the poor sods trudging daily into open plan offices.
Except we don't have the job security, pension provisions or flexible working arrangements.
fblm said:
mph1977 said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
whidh few staff actually recieve a full pension due to career breaks and part time working ... 85 +% of Nurses are female , an awful lot them will not work full time for all 40 years needed... so it suddenly doesn;t seem as generous does it ...
discussion of band 9 is effectively irrelevant much as discussion of ACPO salaries are irrelevant for police - as only a fraction of 1% of people who could progress to that levle will ever have the opportunity to do so , where 90 ?% of them will never ( regardless of academic qualifications etc) get beyond the frontline management / specialist roles in 6 or7 and many will never progress beyond band 5 ...
Timmy40 said:
Flip Martian said:
A pension is hardly worth becoming a nurse for. NHS pensions, along with most others, aren't what they once were (not saying that's wrong either - just stating a fact).
Saying some nurses can earn 98k a year is like saying some admin staff can earn 98k a year. Its a very broad umbrella and 98k nurses aren't really nurses as most people would understand the term, I would imagine. They're senior senior managers in a specialised area of the NHS business.
Yes but lets get realistic in most parts of the country £98k a year is a fecking fortune, £50k a year would put you on very good money compared to most. So lets forget the extremes. Saying some nurses can earn 98k a year is like saying some admin staff can earn 98k a year. Its a very broad umbrella and 98k nurses aren't really nurses as most people would understand the term, I would imagine. They're senior senior managers in a specialised area of the NHS business.
I reckon most nurses are fairly well paid for the job they do, and are qualified to do.
It seems odd to me that a lot of public sector workers seem to think that in the private sector we all skip happily into work gleeful at the prospect of another day. Nurses feel underpaid and are demoralised? Guess what, so are 99% of the poor sods trudging daily into open plan offices.
Except we don't have the job security, pension provisions or flexible working arrangements.
as that is the reality of being a Band 5 Staff nurse much of the working week...
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