EU Rules Out Renegotiation
Discussion
paulrussell said:
DonnyMac said:
Cameron has promised a referendum if he is PM, coalition or otherwise.
He has made promises in the past which have been delivered and others that have not.
I think what he actually said is that he'll hold a referendum if he's the PM of a Conservative Government.He has made promises in the past which have been delivered and others that have not.
Edit: Here we go...
Guardian said:
David Cameron has revealed he will not go into another coalition without the other party signing up to an EU referendum by the end of 2017.
In a new pledge, the prime minister made it clear that an in-out referendum would be a condition of any future partnership with the Liberal Democrats or another minority party.
During a phone-in for Conservative party supporters, Cameron said: "I would not continue as prime minister unless I can be absolutely guaranteed that this referendum would go ahead on an in-out basis."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/28/da...In a new pledge, the prime minister made it clear that an in-out referendum would be a condition of any future partnership with the Liberal Democrats or another minority party.
During a phone-in for Conservative party supporters, Cameron said: "I would not continue as prime minister unless I can be absolutely guaranteed that this referendum would go ahead on an in-out basis."
Edited by Esseesse on Wednesday 15th April 08:40
If Cameron is elected and If there are negotiations the EU will give some minor change and then he will come back and claim they were successful. He will then give a referendum and the official government position will be to vote to stay in the EU. This was the Wilson method.
The best authority and analysis for this is Dr Norths EU referendum site, he seems to have it nailed down. To paraphrase him,
The main lie that goes with all of this is that by leaving the EU we are leaving the single market, but that need not be the case. Despite that we have politicians and business people lining up to perpetuate that lie.
The public will not get an accurate analysis or accurate picture, fear, uncertainty and doubt will prevail and the chances are the referendum, if we have one, will be lost to those who want an exit.
The best authority and analysis for this is Dr Norths EU referendum site, he seems to have it nailed down. To paraphrase him,
The main lie that goes with all of this is that by leaving the EU we are leaving the single market, but that need not be the case. Despite that we have politicians and business people lining up to perpetuate that lie.
The public will not get an accurate analysis or accurate picture, fear, uncertainty and doubt will prevail and the chances are the referendum, if we have one, will be lost to those who want an exit.
Guybrush said:
There's one certainty; if any party other than the Conservatives are in power, there will be no referendum. The left won't give us the chance to vote.
grumbledoak said:
None of the main parties will give us an in/out referendum. If there was anything to learn from the expenses 'shock' it was how cheaply bought the grubbing buggers all are. The promise of a cushy job in the new GDR will be more than enough for any of them.
in what world do you live?there is only one party that you can actually guarantee WILL get us a referendum, no if's, no but's, etc.
IT'S NOT THE TORIES!
yes, I know UKIP are not going to win a majority, but that does not change the simple fact that they are the only party serious about staging an EU referendum.
realistically, the only way this will actually happen is if UKIP get enough seats with the tories to force the issue, not ideal, but probably the best option currently on the table.
steveatesh said:
If Cameron is elected and If there are negotiations the EU will give some minor change and then he will come back and claim they were successful. He will then give a referendum and the official government position will be to vote to stay in the EU.
The best authority and analysis for this is Dr Norths EU referendum site, he seems to have it nailed down. To paraphrase him,
The main lie that goes with all of this is that by leaving the EU we are leaving the single market, but that need not be the case. Despite that we have politicians and business people lining up to perpetuate that lie.
The public will not get an accurate analysis or accurate picture, fear, uncertainty and doubt will prevail and the chances are the referendum, if we have one, will be lost to those who want an exit.
This is why we need a referendum from someone who wants to leave (or just have a government who wants to leave take us out), not from EU loving Cameron.The best authority and analysis for this is Dr Norths EU referendum site, he seems to have it nailed down. To paraphrase him,
The main lie that goes with all of this is that by leaving the EU we are leaving the single market, but that need not be the case. Despite that we have politicians and business people lining up to perpetuate that lie.
The public will not get an accurate analysis or accurate picture, fear, uncertainty and doubt will prevail and the chances are the referendum, if we have one, will be lost to those who want an exit.
grumbledoak said:
Scuffers said:
in what world do you live?
The one where UKIP won't get more than a handful of seats. Sadly. if the Tories get a majority, you can kiss goodbye to any chance of EU exit.
Guybrush said:
There's one certainty; if any party other than the Conservatives are in power, there will be no referendum. The left won't give us the chance to vote.
Sadly you're right.And if Labour get in were doubly f
ked. An economically inept and inadequate UK Government, compounded by the economically inept and even more inadequate EU.We will be well and truly stuffed for generation to come.
Guybrush said:
There's one certainty; if any party other than the Conservatives are in power, there will be no referendum. The left won't give us the chance to vote.
Sadly you're right.And if Labour get in were doubly f
ked. An economically inept and inadequate UK Government, compounded by the economically inept and even more inadequate EU.We will be well and truly stuffed for generation to come.
grumbledoak said:
None of the main parties will give us an in/out referendum. If there was anything to learn from the expenses 'shock' it was how cheaply bought the grubbing buggers all are. The promise of a cushy job in the new GDR will be more than enough for any of them.
Indeed. There will never be a referendum if there is the slightest chance of the people voting for "out". Excuses will be found.Also check the wording:
"No treaty change proposals are envisaged until after November 2019, the end of Mr Juncker's mandate as president of the commission."
That won't stop Cameron conspiring with them to come up with some "concessions" which do not require treaty change (which presumably is his plan all along because the timescales for treaty change are far longer than by 2017 anyway).
The public won't understand the difference, and the media won't tell them.
Nothing new here.
"No treaty change proposals are envisaged until after November 2019, the end of Mr Juncker's mandate as president of the commission."
That won't stop Cameron conspiring with them to come up with some "concessions" which do not require treaty change (which presumably is his plan all along because the timescales for treaty change are far longer than by 2017 anyway).
The public won't understand the difference, and the media won't tell them.
Nothing new here.
grumbledoak said:
It never was up for renegotiation, and it will not be. Cameron was lying to try to get elected.
If the EU refuse and renegotiation then the Referendum will happen: In/Out. If the EU do renegotiate the the Referendum will happen: In/Out.The EU stance on renegotiation will be entirely responsible for how people vote. Cameron may well back an In vote in the referendum in either case but we will get our chance to have a say on the matter.
FredClogs said:
Does anyone actually know what was to be renegotiated in the renegotiation, and why was previously negotiated was so unsatisfactory? Are we trying to get Germany to pay for us to be towed another 50miles form the coast of france or something?
No, Dave won't say what he wants to renegotiate.grumbledoak said:
It never was up for renegotiation, and it will not be. Cameron was lying to try to get elected.
If the UK returned a conservative majority government, the EU would backpedal faster than the Guardian at tax return season.All they're doing now is playing politics to try to split a conservative majority between them and ukip such that labour steal the election and there is no referendum because the snp don't want one.
Esseesse said:
FredClogs said:
Does anyone actually know what was to be renegotiated in the renegotiation, and why was previously negotiated was so unsatisfactory? Are we trying to get Germany to pay for us to be towed another 50miles form the coast of france or something?
No, Dave won't say what he wants to renegotiate.LucreLout said:
grumbledoak said:
It never was up for renegotiation, and it will not be. Cameron was lying to try to get elected.
If the UK returned a conservative majority government, the EU would backpedal faster than the Guardian at tax return season.All they're doing now is playing politics to try to split a conservative majority between them and ukip such that labour steal the election and there is no referendum because the snp don't want one.
gruffalo said:
A referendum in 2017 has been promised by Dave to stop the Tory Party from tearing itself apart; no-one else is interested in having one.
If the EU really won't listen to part of the party that forms part of the ruling coalition of one of its member states and place its interests above those of all other major UK parties, never mind those of all its other member states, is it really that surprising?
EFA. If the EU really won't listen to part of the party that forms part of the ruling coalition of one of its member states and place its interests above those of all other major UK parties, never mind those of all its other member states, is it really that surprising?
We all like to think our agenda is the most important. Juncker has just stated what his list of priorities is. No surprise that it doesn't coincide with Dave's, particularly after Dave's cack-handed and far too public attempt to block Juncker's appointment. Que sera, sera, but I wouldn't bet on there being a referendum at all and, if there is one, I think the "outs" will lose.
Need to remember that the Commission are ultimately just a bunch of civil servants. If the EU heads of state decide they need to discuss the terms of the UK's membership then that is what's going to happen. It doesn't matter what Juncker thinks. It doesn't matter what the EU parliament thinks. When push comes to shove the only opinions that count are those of the member states' leaders. Cameron doesn't need the approval of Juncker. He needs to convince Merkel, Hollande/Sarkozy, etc. To be sure that will be no mean feat, but the idea that there will be no negotiation if it really looks like the UK will exit the EU is pretty naive.
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