Why are Labour and the Conservatives neck and neck?

[JagLover]

It might seem strange on economic grounds but there are allot of factors behind it.

First of all the old "tribal" vote that would only ever vote Conservative or Labour. This means that no matter how dire the leadership, or policies, both parties would still poll at least 25%.

Then come the factors that specifically benefit labour.

Many public sector workers, quite rightly, believe that their pay and benefits would be higher under Labour and so vote accordingly.

Labour is also seen as both more inclusive and more welcoming to mass immigration so they often receive massive majorities among many ethnic minority communities.

All they need to do on top is attract a few percentage of the electorate who are disillusioned Lib Dem voters to challenge the Tories.

As to what the Conservatives can do about it. The last Tory leader to gain 40% + of the vote was Major. They need to gain the support of aspirational voters and they need to start by making sure their leadership reflects this. It was no coincidence in my opinion that the last two Tory leaders who achieved a majority came from relatively humble backgrounds. Labour can get away with a leader living in a "mansion" in a posh part of London, the Tories cannot.

[RichB]

Flip Martian said:

Political threads on here are virtually pointless. Anyone who doesn't vote tory is a mouth breather, according to most of you. Perhaps these threads are just to remind yourselves how superior you are. Most peculiar.

I wouldn't say the majority, however it is noticeable that those of a left wing preference rarely respond to points that are critical of Labour voters. Using my example earlier, citing people who benefited massively by buying their council houses, then selling them to retire in a far better financial position than they would have anticipated prior to Thatcher's term as PM. These same people rejoiced at the woman's death. I found that distasteful and hypocritical yet I have never heard any left wing supporters explain that behaviour. To me exploiting what is made available, maximising one's benefit from it and gaining financially is a capitalist trait and while I would agree with it I would also applaud the government that made it possible. This is what I would say is peculiar.

[skyrover]

Reading between the lines a bit there, one might think the outcome of the election is heavily decided by the scale of the public sector?

So cut public sector, votes disappear as people lose their jobs and relatives also become jaded.

Retain/increase public sector, votes also disappear as "labour treats the public sector best" (I suppose this argument only works if a significant part of the population is employed by the government)

I wonder how much of this is down to the media... The press loves doom-mongering, yet we really have bugger all to whinge about right now comparatively speaking. (How much of the UK actually watches the news/reads a newspaper?)

A final observation on my part...

The world is increasingly moving toward an internet based information society where news/topical conversation and gossip are far more heavily influenced by the younger generation who have never has such a large voice, nor audience to match it.
Internet forums/chatrooms/messengers//blog's... even major media websites comments sections.

The younger generation is historically speaking more idealistic and left leaning. I suspect this may also play an influential role going forward as a society.

[Kermit power]

Unfortunately, we invented the most stupid fking invention since the dawn of time... Universal suffrage! Everyone over the age of 18 gets to vote, regardless of whether they're paying for the system or not, which is absurd if you think about it.

Imagine you're meeting up with a group of mates to go out for dinner. A couple of them have lost their jobs, so the rest of you might agree between you to quietly pick up their share of the bill so that they can still come out and have a bit of fun, especially at a time when they probably need a bit of cheering up.

With the current electoral system, though, you have to cover the bill for the useless layabout who lives at the other end of the village as well, and not only that, if all the useless layabouts in the village outnumber you and your mates and they decide they want dinner, bed and breakfast at the Savoy, then tough, they get it and you have to pay for it!

I think we should have a dual governance system, with separate elections for each.

The universal suffrage part would be the part which sets the legal system, foreign policy and other stuff which isn't directly related to spending, and which everyone should be entitled to having a say in, but we'd strip out the economic system - the part which decides what benefits get paid to whom, how much different government departments get to spend, how much we throw at the Scots and so forth - and restrict voting on that to people who actually contribute to the system.

Bottom line - as long as people get to say how the money is spent even if they've not contributed themselves, we're going to keep getting Labour governments, and keep getting fked over.

[3000GT ANT]

fblm said:

They should be now after 2008 but instead they managed to pin it entirely on 'bankers'. Innit. The Tories missed the big picture though and played along, they probably welcomed any distraction from the expenses scandal at the time. Oh look over there. Bankers are even nastier than us!

Anyway can hardly blame the electorate for not understanding macro-economics, not when MP's, of all colours, are utterly, utterly clueless fvckwits;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gd6-zfeeaM&fe...

fking morons. Every one of them in that video should be fired.

Edited by fblm on Friday 17th April 16:15

thanks very much, a very enlightening watch! my only question I find from that, is which party is most likely to reduce public sector spending?

[Tannedbaldhead]

In my predicament a Labour government would suit my circumstances better than a Tory government.
I base this on pure ecomomics. Labour want to increase capital spending the Tories don't. Under Labour the construction industry will be more stimulated, wages will rise and the opportunities for my career progression will be better.

Regardless of the good of the country I will be better off. The PH mantra seems to be "look after youself mate" so why should I vote for a party that doesn't serve my own personal interests.

[turbobloke]

Pan Pan Pan said:

Flip Martian said:

Political threads on here are virtually pointless. Anyone who doesn't vote tory is a mouth breather, according to most of you. Perhaps these threads are just to remind yourselves how superior you are. Most peculiar.

Try going to the Guardian website, and see what language posters there use to describe anyone who doesn't vote Labour. See! under the skin, we are all not so different after all.

Except that there's a rational and often selfless basis for voting Conservative.

Vote Labour, get a national economic disaster, nonjobs, and the poorer and lower paid will still be poorer than others in spite of all the fine words.

Vote Conservative, get a strong economy that helps everyone with the private sector providing a bigger tax-take and less borrowing-plus-spunking.

Whichever way you vote the NHS will still want more money nd have to manage with less than it wants. Just like most of us, we're not so different after all

[NicD]

Tannedbaldhead said:

In my predicament a Labour government would suit my circumstances better than a Tory government.
I base this on pure ecomomics. Labour want to increase capital spending the Tories don't. Under Labour the construction industry will be more stimulated, wages will rise and the opportunities for my career progression will be better.

Regardless of the good of the country I will be better off. The PH mantra seems to be "look after youself mate" so why should I vote for a party that doesn't serve my own personal interests.

If that is the sum total of the proposed and envisaged policies on you, cannot argue. You have given your reasons, so again, cannot argue. I do wonder if the investment outweighs the higher taxes and debt you will face.

I have a problem when posters big up a party without giving reasons (or give spurious ones), or worse, hand bag one for the same.

[Kermit power]

Tannedbaldhead said:

In my predicament a Labour government would suit my circumstances better than a Tory government.
I base this on pure ecomomics. Labour want to increase capital spending the Tories don't. Under Labour the construction industry will be more stimulated, wages will rise and the opportunities for my career progression will be better.

Regardless of the good of the country I will be better off. The PH mantra seems to be "look after youself mate" so why should I vote for a party that doesn't serve my own personal interests.

The Labour approach is to buy your vote by throwing money at you in one way or another. That's fine if there's money to throw, but as we've seen time after time, there isn't, so everything goes pear shaped, and the Tories have to come and rescue everything.

The Tories don't tend to throw money at big projects. They go for the idea of building a successful economy so that private sector organisations can throw money into the sort of projects that keep you employed, but do so in a sustainable fashion.

Somewhat simplistic, granted, but only somewhat.

[turbobloke]

NicD said:

...so again, cannot argue...

Well, you could if you tried

There are plenty of us waiting to make hay and cash in if and when Labour get to form the next government, whatever it looks like.

Wanting them to do so and assisting with the crime by voting for the most economically illiterate bunch apart from the LibDems - the Greens being further beyond serious consideration than the LibDems - is a different matter.

[Pesty]

Media constantly saying Tory cuts, nasty party etc etc

[RAFsmoggy]

Cheese Mechanic said:

you are either irresponsible, stupid , or both. Its as easy as that.

Off you go.

Hmmm & your not ofcourse.
Why do feel you need to throw insult's, it's very rude not to mention immature...dear boy!

Talk is cheap...except when government does it.

[jammy_basturd]

Tannedbaldhead said:

In my predicament a Labour government would suit my circumstances better than a Tory government.
I base this on pure ecomomics. Labour want to increase capital spending the Tories don't. Under Labour the construction industry will be more stimulated, wages will rise and the opportunities for my career progression will be better.

Regardless of the good of the country I will be better off. The PH mantra seems to be "look after youself mate" so why should I vote for a party that doesn't serve my own personal interests.

You'll only be better off for a few years, after which Labour won't be able to borrow any more money to spend, the capital projects and constructions industry will nose dive and your career will be worse off for a long, long time.

[RAFsmoggy]

Jimmy is correct, any government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul...

[Moonhawk]

Tannedbaldhead said:

In my predicament a Labour government would suit my circumstances better than a Tory government.
I base this on pure ecomomics. Labour want to increase capital spending the Tories don't. Under Labour the construction industry will be more stimulated, wages will rise and the opportunities for my career progression will be better.

Has the reason why you are in the predicament you are in factored in your decision?

[Tannedbaldhead]

turbobloke said:

Vote Conservative, get a strong economy that helps everyone with the private sector providing a bigger tax-take.

What use is a strong economy if you are not benifitting? I live in a medium sized town where the largest employer is, by far, the HQ of a large international pensions company. Over the last few years the admin staff and call handlers, customer service staff and the call handlers in the building's various contact centres have all been let go then taken on by outsourcing companies. They have lost generous pensions, holiday and sick pay entitlement, bonuses, profit share and staff share issues. In return they have to cope with greatly increased workloads after being set near impossible targets (fail to meet them and you're managed out the door)and in return for all this your wages have dropped from £24k to £16k per annum.

The management say these sacrifices are necessary to save the business and yet award themselves huge wage rises and bonuses (what's more they paid themselves those bonuses even as financial service providers were making huge losses after the crash).

So the economy is picking up, the bosses are making a killing, the city is making a killing, the workers are still £6k per anum down along with a pile of benifits. What's in it for them?

[loafer123]

Pesty said:

Media constantly saying Tory cuts, nasty party etc etc

And use of the word "progressive" for higher tax, bigger public sector.

It isn't progressive it is fking regressive, right back to the 70's.

[anonymous-user]

Pan Pan Pan said:

Try going to the Guardian website, and see what language posters there use to describe anyone who doesn't vote Labour. See! under the skin, we are all not so different after all.

Well, the sociopathic people spouting bile aren't that different. Most normal people don't have that level of anger and resentment to other people or their political views. The political threads on here aren't full of reasonable posters, they attract the same nutters churning out the same frothing nonsense every thread.

[Flipatron]

Consider the UK to be the sinking Titanic.

The Conservatives have everyone on deck, in the lifeboats and in the engine room bailing the water out. People are cold and tired.

Labour offer to take you back inside to the nice warm room, serve you a cup of tea and put an extra bar on the fire. People are now much warmer and happier.

[wc98]

Flip Martian said:

Political threads on here are virtually pointless. Anyone who doesn't vote tory is a mouth breather, according to most of you. Perhaps these threads are just to remind yourselves how superior you are. Most peculiar.

the bit i find perplexing is the constant reference to fiscal responsibility that will only come from voting tory, then ukip come out with the most fiscally responsible manifesto of all the parties while the tories in panic mode are flashing the cheque book in the direction of the nhs,yet still the same people want to vote tory. very strange indeed.