England, Wales and Scotland as indipendant states.

[McWigglebum4th]

arp1 said:

Apologies - SNP MP's.

I dont believe for a second that they will get as many seat as polls predict, however any more than the current number will be a bonus and as a party FOR Scotland they will give us a bigger (so-called) voice and stand up for us as opposed to the london-centric parties that are only interested in cosying up to the big businesses and banks. So what if they are from Scotland? Is that the main reason ph'ers hate them with such fervour? If it was an english party im sure they wouldnt (and you cannot lump ukip in that bracket). If I can vote for a party that has a high chance of representing my constituency and thereafter be the majority in my 'region' then all the better. Absolutely no point in wasting away my vote on parties that do not stand up for us.

You see the sneering and insulting way the tories and labour are portraying Scotland during their soundbites and PMQ's etc... what happened to the lovebomb? Reptiles!

Look

You have a MASSIVE chip on your shoulder against the english


You are completely and utterly incapable of seeing anything other then england versus scotland



And as it UKIP compared to the SNP


Completely identical

[arp1]

I am all for openness and fairness and the current parties are all in it for themselves and their business cronies, not anti- english... Anti-wiggle perhaps

[Welshbeef]

McWigglebum4th said:

arp1 said:

Why not? The tory tail has been wagging the lib-dem dug? Different policies etc allow a balanced ruling and with two parties supporting each other then surely it will be for the greater good of the country? Is it because it is a Scottish party that you are so concerned? Hell, the main parties are basically English ones anyway and we have to suck it up...

Because you moron spending an extra 180 billion when we are already deeply in the red is fking insane

And she calls this "tiny increase" !!
Yet when Tory's and lib Dems end up spending more to fix the economy they nail us? Bizarre

[Liokault]

But this is just turning into a Scotland indpendance debate thread again.

The direction I was looking at was more, why are we together? What do the English get out of Scotland and Wales? Why were we so keen to keep the union together! What happens if we let Wales go? Conversely, what do the scots and Welsh get out of us. I used to this if was quite leaf in the case of the Welsh that the English were carrying them, but after the debate, they clearly aren't happy with how much we are kicking up to them

From an English poin of view, I see no reason other than historical to keep a union with either Scotland or Wales. NI is a bit different.

[danjama]

I honestly don't know.

Saves us carrying a passport to visit?

[ZOLLAR]

Not read the whole thread but from someone who was born and lives in Wales I certainly don't want to be independent.
I think all four countries are stronger together, I'm smart enough to know that wales on it's own would not be good at all and I think I'd consider moving.

I wouldn't say there's a "deep" hatred towards the English, in the last 10-20 years I feel it's developed into a more "friendly banter" relationship, we take the piss you take the piss but ultimately we get on.
That's not to say that there aren't people in both countries that don't like the English or the Welsh but you get those sort of people everywhere.

I love both countries, I have a lot of family in England and visit quite often.
The relationship between the Welsh and the English is very different to the Scot/ English relationship.

Edited by ZOLLAR on Saturday 18th April 11:42

[Funk]

I can't help feeling that everything the SNP are doing is working wonderfully to raise anti-Scottish feeling in England. It's actually very clever. By raising English hackles, they'll be able to foster even more of a nationalistic feeling in Scotland leading to what they ultimately want; departure from the rUK.

The very idea of FFA without full fiscal accountability is laughable and the whole thing is fundamentally incompatible with a 'Union' approach. It's indy-by-proxy.

I no longer care about Scotland staying, in fact I err more toward kicking them out ourselves. They're toxic and having a damaging effect on the economy and will, it seems, be in a position to have a damaging effect on England by 'wagging the Labour dog' as mentioned earlier.

It us wholly unacceptable that Scottish MPs can vote on English matters but not the reverse, especially when the party in charge has a single goal of ending a centuries-old union.

Eject Scotland, cut them off financially and leave them to work it out. It'll be better for us in the long run. Back in the day I was pro-union but now I'm fed up to the back teeth with 'what Scotland wants' and 'what Scotland can get'. If Scotland is allowed to be nationalistic and self absorbed then so should we be in England.

Either we're a united kingdom working together for the betterment of all or we're not. This crippling halfway house approach isn't working and needs to end.

[danjama]

Funk said:

I can't help feeling that everything the SNP are doing is working wonderfully to raise anti-Scottish feeling in England. It's actually very clever. By raising English hackles, they'll be able to foster even more of a nationalistic feeling in Scotland leading to what they ultimately want; departure from the rUK.

The very idea of FFA without full fiscal accountability is laughable and the whole thing is fundamentally incompatible with a 'Union' approach. It's indy-by-proxy.

I no longer care about Scotland staying, in fact I err more toward kicking them out ourselves. They're toxic and having a damaging effect on the economy and will, it seems, be in a position to have a damaging effect on England by 'wagging the Labour dog' as mentioned earlier.

It us wholly unacceptable that Scottish MPs can vote on English matters but not the reverse, especially when the party in charge has a single goal of ending a centuries-old union.

Eject Scotland, cut them off financially and leave them to work it out. It'll be better for us in the long run. Back in the day I was pro-union but now I'm fed up to the back teeth with 'what Scotland wants' and 'what Scotland can get'. If Scotland is allowed to be nationalistic and self absorbed then so should we be in England.

Either we're a united kingdom working together for the betterment of all or we're not. This crippling halfway house approach isn't working and needs to end.

If only one of our politicians had as much sense.

[towser]

Funk said:

I no longer care about Scotland staying, in fact I err more toward kicking them out ourselves. They're toxic and having a damaging effect on the economy and will, it seems, be in a position to have a damaging effect on England by 'wagging the Labour dog' as mentioned earlier.

Emotive words. Who exactly are "toxic"?

The SNP, the nationalists, me, or my daughter, or my son or every man Jock of us?

I voted no in the indy referendum ( as did the majority of Scots ), but the result of that vote is still very much wagging the Scottish political dog right now also....but that seems to be conveniently forgotten sometimes.

I'll probably vote Scottish Conservative this time around as I think seismic change in UK politics right now is the wrong thing to do and we'd collectively be staring back into economic armageddon within 5 years.

The UK is better together ( IMvHO ) - I see no benefit to Scotland going it alone, I think it would be fiscal suicide for Scotland and economically damaging for England and Wales in the short to medium term, I also think it would lead to even greater levels of uncertainty, angst and ill feeling throughout the UK for generations to come.

Some of the thinly veiled bigotry displayed from all sides of this debate is the spoon that's stirring this pot and sadly I see no end to it.

[Funk]

towser said:

Funk said:

I no longer care about Scotland staying, in fact I err more toward kicking them out ourselves. They're toxic and having a damaging effect on the economy and will, it seems, be in a position to have a damaging effect on England by 'wagging the Labour dog' as mentioned earlier.

Emotive words. Who exactly are "toxic"?

The SNP, the nationalists, me, or my daughter, or my son or every man Jock of us?

I voted no in the indy referendum ( as did the majority of Scots ), but the result of that vote is still very much wagging the Scottish political dog right now also....but that seems to be conveniently forgotten sometimes.

I'll probably vote Scottish Conservative this time around as I think seismic change in UK politics right now is the wrong thing to do and we'd collectively be staring back into economic armageddon within 5 years.

The UK is better together ( IMvHO ) - I see no benefit to Scotland going it alone, I think it would be fiscal suicide for Scotland and economically damaging for England and Wales in the short to medium term, I also think it would lead to even greater levels of uncertainty, angst and ill feeling throughout the UK for generations to come.

Some of the thinly veiled bigotry displayed from all sides of this debate is the spoon that's stirring this pot and sadly I see no end to it.

I don't think you can blame rUK (and let's be honest, most of that's England) for feeling a little pissed about what's gone on and what may be about to happen? I've seen many people posting who seem to feel similarly to me; never had any issue at all with Scotland, Wales or NI (despite there sometimes being some overly-vitriolic behaviour thrown our way). However, the whole referendum and now threats from the SNP to 'control England via the backdoor' have moved many of us to simply not wanting Scotland to be part of things any more.

Those who don't want to leave the Union need to work to convince your fellow countrymen to excise the SNP cancer or accept that if the SNP are repeatedly voted back in then you'll always be living under the cloud of a 'neverendum' and the damage that their presence brings to the table.

The SNP's views aren't compatible with the whole idea of the Union and they are almost irreparably harming Anglo-Scottish relations, successfully driving a wedge into a relationship that has been in place for hundreds of years. I feel sorry for those who voted no but still find themselves having independence 'snuck in' through the back door and a party in power who are hell-bent on getting you out of the Union.

Until the SNP are gone, nothing will change.

[Edinburger]

Liokault said:

But this is just turning into a Scotland indpendance debate thread again.

Exactly. There are a few posters who consistently bring the Scottish referendum into every other thread on PH. Or create new ones if the main thread is going stale.

There are others who make controversial, or just downright stupid comments, such as:

Welshbeef said:

That's the key thing only a tiny % of Scottish voters vote for SNP

Define "tiny", Beefy?

At the end of the day, Wales is a principality with a small appetite for independence which is intrinsically integrated with England, whereas Scotland is a country which retains it's own laws and other items with a relatively larger appetite for independence.

Will either ever happen? Probably not. Is a federal UK likely where there are four parliaments and Westminster deals with defence, Europe, etc? Yes, absolutely.

All in my view.

[Edinburger]

We shouldn't forget Northern Ireland here...

[ZOLLAR]

Edinburger said:

Define "tiny", Beefy?

At the end of the day, Wales is a principality with a small appetite for independence which is intrinsically integrated with England, whereas Scotland is a country which retains it's own laws and other items with a relatively larger appetite for independence.

Will either ever happen? Probably not. Is a federal UK likely where there are four parliaments and Westminster deals with defence, Europe, etc? Yes, absolutely.

All in my view.

There was a long thread on it before but there's national and international agreement that Wales is a country and not a principality.
It hasn't been officially a principality since about the 16th century.

[Dr Jekyll]

Edinburger said:

At the end of the day, Wales is a principality with a small appetite for independence which is intrinsically integrated with England, whereas Scotland is a country which retains it's own laws and other items with a relatively larger appetite for independence.

The other complication is that people in Swansea and Cardiff often regard themselves as having more in common with say Bristol than with rural Wales.

[GetCarter]

Edinburger said:

At the end of the day, Wales is a principality.

Wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Wales

[ZOLLAR]

Dr Jekyll said:

Edinburger said:

At the end of the day, Wales is a principality with a small appetite for independence which is intrinsically integrated with England, whereas Scotland is a country which retains it's own laws and other items with a relatively larger appetite for independence.

The other complication is that people in Swansea and Cardiff often regard themselves as having more in common with say Bristol than with rural Wales.

I certainly don't have anything in common with Bristol
But I get what you're saying, further west you go certainly past Swansea you find a stronger Welsh identity.

[Edinburger]

Apologies - I was wrong.

Looks like the Principality of Wales came to an end in 1542.

I must have been washing my hair that day.

My mistook.

[simoid]

Edinburger said:

Apologies - I was wrong.

Looks like the Principality of Wales came to an end in 1542.

I must have been washing my hair that day.

My mistook.

Guardian Style Guide said:

Wales
avoid the word "principality", and do not use as a unit of measurement ("50 times the size of Wales")

http://www.theguardian.com/guardian-observer-style-guide-w

[matchmaker]

towser said:

Some of the thinly veiled bigotry displayed from all sides of this debate is the spoon that's stirring this pot and sadly I see no end to it.

Quite.

[hidetheelephants]

Perhaps it might add some perspective to observe that this is all the doing of Tony Blair; he signed off on devolution and a Scottish parliament, Donald Dewar attempting to load the deck so the likelihood of a majority SNP administration was unlikely, and blithely ignored the West Lothian question and the fact that he'd started the UK toward federalisation but stopped at the first tricky bit, leaving everybody pissed off. As in so many other areas, he's a half-a-job ; now he's richer than Croesus perhaps we ought to band together and sue him for being so ste.