Trade union and socialist coalition party

[V8covin]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

If anyone read the link to the Chelsea FC website, you would have seen this para:

‘We believe the move to the Living Wage underlines our commitment to ensuring that all our employees receive a fair rate of pay for their hard work and dedication. Quite simply it is the right thing to do.’

That sums it up for me. It's the same argument as I would use to argue against importing goods produced by child labour. Or in dangerous factories on the sub continent that fall down and kill hundreds. Yes, it may push up prices. Yes, it may prove to be slightly inflationary. But...it's the right thing to do.

I take it you don't have any Apple products then

BTW.Chelsea FC are hardly a good example.Money is no object to them.What about a club in the conference ?

[sidicks]

V8covin said:

I take it you don't have any Apple products then

BTW.Chelsea FC are hardly a good example.Money is no object to them.What about a club in the conference ?

Or any business where margins are low and the bulk of the workforce are unskilled workers.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

V8covin said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

If anyone read the link to the Chelsea FC website, you would have seen this para:

‘We believe the move to the Living Wage underlines our commitment to ensuring that all our employees receive a fair rate of pay for their hard work and dedication. Quite simply it is the right thing to do.’

That sums it up for me. It's the same argument as I would use to argue against importing goods produced by child labour. Or in dangerous factories on the sub continent that fall down and kill hundreds. Yes, it may push up prices. Yes, it may prove to be slightly inflationary. But...it's the right thing to do.

I take it you don't have any Apple products then

BTW.Chelsea FC are hardly a good example.Money is no object to them.What about a club in the conference ?

As it happens, I don't own any Apple products. And Chelsea are a very good example, because as I keep saying, 85% of those on NMW work for organisations with a turnover of £100m +. It's the conference club that isn't a good example.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

iphonedyou said:

fblm said:

Some prices, of some goods and services, would have to rise once some unprofitable companies had their taxpayer wage subsidy removed. Trying to equate a x% increase in NMW with an x% increase in prices is ridiculous.

Corporation tax - 39bn
Working tax credits - 23bn
Watching a bunch of 'capitalists' getting themselves all tied up defending corporate subsidies - priceless

For clarity, that was Twig's argument (reference his hotel example.)

No, it was Loafer123 who first linked NMW to an increase in room rates. I just quoted it to show how meaningless it was.

[nikaiyo2]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

You seem to live in a world where everyone is obsessed about maintaining differentials. It's just not the case.

So, I work for Chelsea and I'm on £6.50/hour. Then Chelsea announce that they are adopting Living Wage which for London is £9.15. Happy days. Then the govt announce an increase in NMW to the Living wage. So my mates on the turnstiles or sweeping up at Spurs and Arsenal are now also on £9.15/hour.

So if you are on £2.65 more than the minimum wage, what happens to your spending power when that differential is removed? To my way of looking at it, your spending power has decreased, or you have taken a paycut by another name...

[mph1977]

fblm said:

sidicks said:

If the minimum wage isn't enough to live on, why do we tax the minimum wage...

Tax them a grand and give them back four grand in WTC? Keeps a few public sector chumps in jobs is suppose.

which is why one of the policies suggested by both the COnservatives and the Lib dems for the next parliament is the equate a full time wage at NMW with the basic personal allowance for income tax...

[edh]

It's not that often I agree with fblm...

Tax credits subsidise poverty pay and company profits.

No-one has mentioned productivity...That's what helps pay for increased wages (alongside that suggestion of a CT cut? btw I think Labour has promised a business rates cut to firms paying the Living Wage). GDP may be slightly up (those pesky immigrants, coming over here, increasing our GDP..), but GDP/head is still down.

For years, employers have relied on cheap labour to make profits, and haven't had the incentive to innovate or invest capital to increase productivity. That sounds to me like a direct parallel with the decline of our manufacturing sector as our protected markets disappeared.

In regard to paying taxes, I think people should participate in society, and one way they do that is to pay tax. Ok they will all be paying VAT & other taxes, but I think it is good for everyone to feel some sense of holding government, local and national, to account for the way they spend the money they collect from all of us, and seeing deductions on your payslip is a much more direct link I feel.

[edh]

mph1977 said:

fblm said:

sidicks said:

If the minimum wage isn't enough to live on, why do we tax the minimum wage...

Tax them a grand and give them back four grand in WTC? Keeps a few public sector chumps in jobs is suppose.

which is why one of the policies suggested by both the COnservatives and the Lib dems for the next parliament is the equate a full time wage at NMW with the basic personal allowance for income tax...

only it isn't... 30 hours wasn't it, not full time? and they still pay NI - EE's and ER's. NI is a massive tax that needs far more of an overhaul than IT.

[loafer123]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

iphonedyou said:

fblm said:

Some prices, of some goods and services, would have to rise once some unprofitable companies had their taxpayer wage subsidy removed. Trying to equate a x% increase in NMW with an x% increase in prices is ridiculous.

Corporation tax - 39bn
Working tax credits - 23bn
Watching a bunch of 'capitalists' getting themselves all tied up defending corporate subsidies - priceless

For clarity, that was Twig's argument (reference his hotel example.)

No, it was Loafer123 who first linked NMW to an increase in room rates. I just quoted it to show how meaningless it was.

It wasn't meaningless, you just ignored the logical and detailed answer I gave which showed you why it would cause substantial room price increases, less demand and your reaction was you would rather see businesses fold.

I am guessing that you are one of those Labour supporters who want an increase in the top rate of tax even if it would create less tax receipts on "moral grounds"?

[BGARK]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

sidicks said:

If the minimum wage isn't enough to live on, why do we tax the minimum wage...

Now that is a very good question. Min wage £6.50/hour. 37.5hr standard working week pays £12675/year. And on £2K of that you'd pay tax and on £4K of it you'd pay NI. Seems ludicrous and a low salary like that.

Apparently millions of people on low wage paying almost no tax is funding our economy, best let in another couple of million extra people with no skills to pay next to zero in tax to fund the NHS (the gist of labours manifesto).

In addition if you have children and qualify for working tax credits you end up potentially receiving money from the state, you might be working but are actually a negative contributor, I know many people who actually don't want to be paid too much so they remain in this category when they have children:

https://www.gov.uk/tax-credits-calculator

Do the maths, we are all doomed.

Edited by BGARK on Monday 20th April 22:20

[TwigtheWonderkid]

loafer123 said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

iphonedyou said:

fblm said:

Some prices, of some goods and services, would have to rise once some unprofitable companies had their taxpayer wage subsidy removed. Trying to equate a x% increase in NMW with an x% increase in prices is ridiculous.

Corporation tax - 39bn
Working tax credits - 23bn
Watching a bunch of 'capitalists' getting themselves all tied up defending corporate subsidies - priceless

For clarity, that was Twig's argument (reference his hotel example.)

No, it was Loafer123 who first linked NMW to an increase in room rates. I just quoted it to show how meaningless it was.

It wasn't meaningless, you just ignored the logical and detailed answer I gave which showed you why it would cause substantial room price increases, less demand and your reaction was you would rather see businesses fold.

I am guessing that you are one of those Labour supporters who want an increase in the top rate of tax even if it would create less tax receipts on "moral grounds"?

Well you've guessed wrong. Wanna have another go?

[anonymous-user]

edh said:

It's not that often I agree with fblm...

Oh fvck, I've clearly got this all wrong

[edh]

fblm said:

edh said:

It's not that often I agree with fblm...

Oh fvck, I've clearly got this all wrong

I must say I never had you down as a dangerous revolutionary....

And what a turn up that Dave nellist & co get a positive response on ph.

[Digga]

sidicks said:

V8covin said:

I take it you don't have any Apple products then

BTW.Chelsea FC are hardly a good example.Money is no object to them.What about a club in the conference ?

Or any business where margins are low and the bulk of the workforce are unskilled workers.

^This. Any low margin or pile-high-sell-cheap type business is going to struggle to pay anything other than peanuts. In a free market, there are always going to be some jobs like this.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

edh said:

And what a turn up that Dave nellist & co get a positive response on ph.

Not sure he has. I agree with one thing he said in a Party Political Broadcast full of claptrap.

[Du1point8]

Digga said:

sidicks said:

V8covin said:

I take it you don't have any Apple products then

BTW.Chelsea FC are hardly a good example.Money is no object to them.What about a club in the conference ?

Or any business where margins are low and the bulk of the workforce are unskilled workers.

^This. Any low margin or pile-high-sell-cheap type business is going to struggle to pay anything other than peanuts. In a free market, there are always going to be some jobs like this.

Im guessing farmers will suffer too as they hire pickers and now the produce will go up in price if they have to pay people £10 an hour to pick potatoes, peas, etc.

[Vaud]

Du1point8 said:

Im guessing farmers will suffer too as they hire pickers and now the produce will go up in price if they have to pay people £10 an hour to pick potatoes, peas, etc.

Although I am a rampant capitalist, what would that really add to UK food costs, given the amount that is important and the amount that is mechanised in the UK? What % of the shelf price is from minimum cost workers?

[ianrb]

Vaud said:

Du1point8 said:

Im guessing farmers will suffer too as they hire pickers and now the produce will go up in price if they have to pay people £10 an hour to pick potatoes, peas, etc.

Although I am a rampant capitalist, what would that really add to UK food costs, given the amount that is important and the amount that is mechanised in the UK? What % of the shelf price is from minimum cost workers?

Would depend on the crop. Raspberries, for example, are very labour intensive to pick and pack, so they would almost certainly go up in price, but potatoes have a very mechanised pick and pack process, so would not I suspect be subject to much change.

[BGARK]

ianrb said:

Would depend on the crop. Raspberries, for example, are very labour intensive to pick and pack, so they would almost certainly go up in price, but potatoes have a very mechanised pick and pack process, so would not I suspect be subject to much change.

So the best solution for business owners is actually to invest in automation and technology to replace low skilled workers?

[Du1point8]

BGARK said:

ianrb said:

Would depend on the crop. Raspberries, for example, are very labour intensive to pick and pack, so they would almost certainly go up in price, but potatoes have a very mechanised pick and pack process, so would not I suspect be subject to much change.

So the best solution for business owners is actually to invest in automation and technology to replace low skilled workers?

Yep I can see a lot of automated systems coming in place like this:

http://www.oxbocorp.com/Products/Berries/Raspberry...

or the farmer goes out of business/has to rely on pick your own fruit selling instead which might not bring in enough money to pay for the money spent growing the crop.