NHS "Fat Cats" ?
Discussion
Talksteer said:
As an example Nottingham University Hospital, has a budget of £650 million and employs 6000 people, I'd expect the person who runs such an establishment to be well paid.
But by the same token. A snippet from a QI episode broadcast a few years back:"CEOs, no matter how much they are paid, have no effect on the performance of a company: the idea that they are worth what they are paid, which is gigantic compared to the average member of their workforce, is nonsense. A report in 2013 found that between 1993-2012 40% of the USA's highest paid CEOs had either their companies bailed out by the taxpayer, had their companies charged with fraudulent activity, been fired for poor performance, or have overseen the death of their companies."
Hooli said:
AS a NHS worker I can only agree.
Does anyone know what the problems actually are?Why don't we fix them?
I believe the issues are because no one wants to deal with the problems because of unions, liabilities or cronyism layered throughout.
A corporate could fix these issues in short order, but that is how a public service should be able to work too.
Once again this is ineffective politicians too worried about popularity for the short term rather than betterment for the long-term.
Throw in cronyism and you have a deadly mix.
There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the NHS. The fundamental fault is with our politicians!
Dave
carinaman said:
The thread or my post? I'm sure if you look you can see how that head of NHS Trust and that NHS England's National Lead for Equality and Diversity was getting paid before she came unstuck for changing a job description to suit her girlfriend's boyfriend and giving her the job as Diversity Manager.
I've assumed that that was a little cabal of Common Purpose people. Some opined that it was the funny handshake club, but subsequent stuff coming from that NHS Trust hasn't done much to dispel my thoughts that Common Purpose type nonsense was involved.
I assume she was being paid by her employers (like most other employees). Are you assuming that because (a) she works for the NHS and (b) the NHS send people on CP courses that she is automatically involved with CP or that CP are involved with this nepotism case?I've assumed that that was a little cabal of Common Purpose people. Some opined that it was the funny handshake club, but subsequent stuff coming from that NHS Trust hasn't done much to dispel my thoughts that Common Purpose type nonsense was involved.
carinaman said:
The thread is about how much NHS Senior Managers are getting paid. I've just cited an example where an NHS England Lead for Equality & Diversity and head of an NHS Trust couldn't see anything wrong giving her daughter's boyfriend a job.
So I am wondering if she was paid to 'manage' or getting rewarded with a large salary for running part of the NHS like her own little fiefdom.
In my experience all CEOs are (to a degree) arrogant, power-mad, control freaks. That's partly how they get to become CEOs and partly why there should be Governance systems to stop them abusing their power. Which looks like what has happened in this instance. This "Power mad CEO-type" isn't unique to the NHS or to the Public Sector in general. So I am wondering if she was paid to 'manage' or getting rewarded with a large salary for running part of the NHS like her own little fiefdom.
carinaman said:
Are they working for the NHS, patients or Common Purpose?
Like the vast majority of people, they're in it for what they can get for themselves. CP has nothing to do with it.s3fella said:
I'm afraid it is no surprise, the NHS is MASSIVELY wasteful and all levels. Always has been, always will be whilst is stays as an NHS.
With a slight change for "all" to "most" I would go with this from my third hand knowledge.There are some hugely capable people about in the Trusts but they are constantly being dragged down by 'legacy' staff who have been there for XX years and "that isn't how we do things here" mentality. Simple repetitive ordering tasks take 3-4 days to get to the right person because Person A can't be bothered to call Person F (despite being told to do so) but always calls Person B who e-mails Person C who calls Person E who then e-mails person D who tells everyone to stop bothering them and to talk to Person F in future whilst tasking Person F in the same e-mail.
Then you have the 8-4 mentality of "I arrive at 8:00 - 8:15 in the office, then work my 30mins lunch and then I can go home at 3pm 4 days a week." Or take 2 hours for lunch. Won't start that 15 minute job as it is 3:55.
You can see it happening to the lower level incomers as well as they are taught by the example of those who spend half their day working our how to only to 1/4 of their daily workload. All the time backed up by the knowledge that once it has been proven someone has been promoted who should not have been Unison gets all hissy when you try to drop them a grade back, not to mention the kick from the person and their 'lifer' mates.
There are a lot of very hard working and dedicated back office staff in NHS Trusts, the problem is that they are getting the same kicking as the freeloaders, whilst trying to pick up the pieces left by the freeloaders and do their own jobs.
NicD said:
Countdown said:
What does ^^^^ have to do with Common Purpose? 
With regards to "NHS Fat Cats" - for the amount of work involved I don't think they're that well paid.
ah good, a knowledgable insider.With regards to "NHS Fat Cats" - for the amount of work involved I don't think they're that well paid.
How much work is involved, and how do you know this?
It's a free labour market. If you think the role is overpaid feel free to apply. Whinging about other peoples salaries is a tad pathetic I always think.
98elise said:
That said for the money it recieves we get a piss poor service so something is not working.
I had a brain tumour removed in 2011, the service from the NHS was exemplary and I have no complaints whatsoever. They were utterly brilliant form start to finish, and I have had excellent follow up care ever since.My daughter was born in 3 weeks ago, again the NHS was absolutely brilliant. We even have a prompt follow up appointment for a scan on her hip. The post birth service with the midwives and home visits has also been very good.
I for one have been very happy with the NHS.
Moonhawk said:
Talksteer said:
As an example Nottingham University Hospital, has a budget of £650 million and employs 6000 people, I'd expect the person who runs such an establishment to be well paid.
But by the same token. A snippet from a QI episode broadcast a few years back:"CEOs, no matter how much they are paid, have no effect on the performance of a company: the idea that they are worth what they are paid, which is gigantic compared to the average member of their workforce, is nonsense. A report in 2013 found that between 1993-2012 40% of the USA's highest paid CEOs had either their companies bailed out by the taxpayer, had their companies charged with fraudulent activity, been fired for poor performance, or have overseen the death of their companies."
Take Dyson, the guy who runs it is the founder and owner, if he stuffs up, it;s his company he's stuffed.
compare this with CEO's of big corporates that are appointed from outside to head up huge organisations, but have little idea what actually goes on in said company, then wonder why they often stuff it up, only to leave with a huge payoff, they have no personal financial risk involved etc etc.
sam deal with the NHS, the management have no personal responsibility, ie, they stuff up, the leave (with pay off) only to get another job in the NHS somewhere else and repeat the cycle.
What hospital's need is professional administrators, facilities management, etc. not empire building figureheads.
vonuber said:
98elise said:
That said for the money it recieves we get a piss poor service so something is not working.
I had a brain tumour removed in 2011, the service from the NHS was exemplary and I have no complaints whatsoever. They were utterly brilliant form start to finish, and I have had excellent follow up care ever since.My daughter was born in 3 weeks ago, again the NHS was absolutely brilliant. We even have a prompt follow up appointment for a scan on her hip. The post birth service with the midwives and home visits has also been very good.
I for one have been very happy with the NHS.
Everyone's a business expect when it comes to the NHS. Perhaps some of those people will decide to go into it - they'll be paid well
La Liga said:
expect you're a part of the silent majority.
I suspect I am. PH will never be happy with the NHS until they see it sold off into private hands, and then we can have lots of threads moaning about the cost of insurance / how much of a killing they've made from the shares in the companies.J4CKO said:
I keep hearing the phrase "NHS in crisis", has it ever been any different ?
There's a chart somewhere that shows the NHS spending for the last 20 years or so & every year is marked as "in crises" despite how much money had been spent that year. I can't seem to find it, does anybody have it? vonuber said:
La Liga said:
expect you're a part of the silent majority.
I suspect I am. PH will never be happy with the NHS until they see it sold off into private hands, and then we can have lots of threads moaning about the cost of insurance / how much of a killing they've made from the shares in the companies.What I do want to see though is a full on reset of the NHS - something that isn't ever going to happen I suspect - as that is what is needed to bring a jumble of mess that we have now into an efficient and effective provider of free healthcare to the populace.
The level of waste at all levels is astonishing, as it that level of intransigence met by anyone who tries to improve on things. Simple stuff that can save thousands of pounds are overlooked or are made impossible by PFI contracts or just plain old blocked because not invented here. Simple things can yield huge year on year savings but are not done for the sake of a few hours of someone's time identifying viable alternatives in terms of suppliers or facilities. I couldn't care if I was crapping into a cardboard bedpan costing £0.10 compared to a £10 metal one which is used 100 times before disposal, but which crucially has to be cleaned and sanitised, etc between each use.
Mr Whippy said:
Hooli said:
AS a NHS worker I can only agree.
Does anyone know what the problems actually are?Why don't we fix them?
I believe the issues are because no one wants to deal with the problems because of unions, liabilities or cronyism layered throughout.
A corporate could fix these issues in short order, but that is how a public service should be able to work too.
Once again this is ineffective politicians too worried about popularity for the short term rather than betterment for the long-term.
Throw in cronyism and you have a deadly mix.
There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the NHS. The fundamental fault is with our politicians!
Dave
The problem with the NHS is useless managers promote other useless staff so the original staff don't feel threatened. Then the useless staff do the same etc etc Over the years almost everyone from team leaders upwards only has the job because they are too stupid & useless to deserve it.
We're not allowed to say that about NHS staff though are we? Some of the Drs & more of the nurses do a damn good job & even the occasional back office staff, but most of them are useless at everything except arse covering.
La Liga said:
expect you're a part of the silent majority. I expect most people who interact with the NHS are at least satisfied / happy with what they receive. The data supports this: http://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/bsa-survey-20...
Everyone's a business expect when it comes to the NHS. Perhaps some of those people will decide to go into it - they'll be paid well
We've needed the NHS a lot in the last few months and they've been great too. We can't really fault them from start to finish. The way people talk about how sEveryone's a business expect when it comes to the NHS. Perhaps some of those people will decide to go into it - they'll be paid well
t the NHS are sometimes is quite upsetting when you balance it against the amazing service you've personally had.I honestly think that apparent things are being made 'worse' somehow just so it looks like an issue for the election. I'm not sure how but it seems the apparent 'crisis' has come out of nowhere suddenly.
That's not to say though that there isn't a lot of improvements that can be made.
But it does make you wonder if the NHS is being made to appear bad, in order to farm out more of it to private business who can 'run it better'... just because politicians can't run it better for fear of it reflecting badly on them cleaning it up. They'd rather pay others to fix it for them.
I know I'm bringing TTIP up again in another thread, but it does make you wonder how much the NHS is being dressed up to look in crisis, to ease the transfer of elements into private business contracts, and then suddenly everything is turned back to 'working' so it looks great.
Hmmmm
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
I honestly think that apparent things are being made 'worse' somehow just so it looks like an issue for the election. I'm not sure how but it seems the apparent 'crisis' has come out of nowhere suddenly.
Presenting the public services as "in crisis" and needing constant "reform" is politically advantageous to both those in officer and those trying to get in it. Could you ever imagine the opposition saying, "The current lot have done some good work with the NHS we'll sustain and build upon"?
Big, important institutions used as cynical political footballs.
What annoys me about public service bosses is they justify their large salary by saying they are responsible for xyz.
But when their decisions are a proven cock up they try and pass the buck saying they can't be held responsible for xyz.
As an engineer if I make a decision that's wrong it gets traced back to me and I would get in the st for it so why are certain "managers" never pulled up on their mistakes?
But when their decisions are a proven cock up they try and pass the buck saying they can't be held responsible for xyz.
As an engineer if I make a decision that's wrong it gets traced back to me and I would get in the s
t for it so why are certain "managers" never pulled up on their mistakes?La Liga said:
Mr Whippy said:
I honestly think that apparent things are being made 'worse' somehow just so it looks like an issue for the election. I'm not sure how but it seems the apparent 'crisis' has come out of nowhere suddenly.
Presenting the public services as "in crisis" and needing constant "reform" is politically advantageous to both those in officer and those trying to get in it. Could you ever imagine the opposition saying, "The current lot have done some good work with the NHS we'll sustain and build upon"?
Big, important institutions used as cynical political footballs.
Over that last few years my family has (unfortunately) had to use the NHS repeatedly and without exception the care has been superb; however from a users experience with no inside knowledge it does seem the "back office" could be improved. One minor example; whenever we got admitted (we have direct access to ward) the nurse would have to go through the same 5-6+ pages admissions form taking maybe 20mins. I would have though this could be electronic with all previous data?
Off course this would no doubt cost £bn's and fuels the "under re-sourced" argument
La Liga said:
resenting the public services as "in crisis" and needing constant "reform" is politically advantageous to both those in officer and those trying to get in it.
Could you ever imagine the opposition saying, "The current lot have done some good work with the NHS we'll sustain and build upon"?
Big, important institutions used as cynical political footballs.
It's depressing really.Could you ever imagine the opposition saying, "The current lot have done some good work with the NHS we'll sustain and build upon"?
Big, important institutions used as cynical political footballs.
There is a huge conflict of interests in the current political system.
Party politics, toeing party line, and climbing the greasy pole of cronyism and party clique acceptance, all come a long way further up the pile than representing your electorate.
Just one lot of self-serving lying scum or another.
Not much hope for a better Britain, or an NHS that can shine brighter with each passing year under public ownership, while the current political system continues on it's trajectory of feckless cronyism.
Dave
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