Maybe The Last Nazi War Criminal to go On Trial
Discussion
Oskar Groening, 93, is to go on trial for being an accessory to the murder of 300,000 inmates at Auschwitz between May and June 1944.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/bookkeeper-ausch...
That the "Accountant of Auschwitz" is interviewed a number of times in this documentary, where his involvement in the day-to-day running of the camp isn't denied, it does raise the question of why its taken so long.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/bookkeeper-ausch...
That the "Accountant of Auschwitz" is interviewed a number of times in this documentary, where his involvement in the day-to-day running of the camp isn't denied, it does raise the question of why its taken so long.
Grumfutock said:
pointless and politically motivated measure. Ridiculous.
Agree 100%. He was part of the war machine. Same as those who fought on the front or in the skies, or those in reserved occupations who dug the coal or baked the bread. It's called collective responsibility. Unless you were a registered conscientious objector, you are all equal in facilitating that war effort.This trial serves no purpose other than to keep certain vocal pressure groups happy. It's ridiculous and petty IMHO.
I don't think those on the front or in the skies were necessarily all aware of exactly what was going on in the concentration camps - remember the Allies were shocked when they found them. But a senior official within the camps -he must have known, in fact could not have failed to be aware. That was not war, that was genocide and there can be no statute of limitations on a crime of that magnitude.
Digga said:
I don't think those on the front or in the skies were necessarily all aware of exactly what was going on in the concentration camps - remember the Allies were shocked when they found them. But a senior official within the camps -he must have known, in fact could not have failed to be aware. That was not war, that was genocide and there can be no statute of limitations on a crime of that magnitude.
Completely agree. These people weren't 'fighting' anyone at all - don't let the fact that Germany were at war cloud your judgement on what the non-front liners were doing. What is little known, is that the extermination camps, Treblinka, Sobibor , part of Aushwitz, and others were state secrets. Anyone heard blabbing about them, or what went on in them would find themselves in very hot water, if not an inmate themselves.
Anyone therefore, posted to work in one, could find themselves in a tricky position. Himmler and his mates were well known to have sympathy with those who opposed or made life hard for them.
Although its well known that some in the camps perpetrated needless brutality, I've oft thought that aside those thugs the real villains , viz, those that instigated , devleloped and created the camps should have been the true and main targets of post war criminal justice. Many of the "minnows" who ended up working in the camps would have ended up there for reasons beyond their control and could find themselves in a very tricky position if objecting, especially if they had family,.
As for the time scale, any witnesses at any trial nowadays are going to be very elderly,thus the reliability of statements made can easily be cast into doubt. Tricky, to be honest, certainly mixed feelings on my part.
Anyone therefore, posted to work in one, could find themselves in a tricky position. Himmler and his mates were well known to have sympathy with those who opposed or made life hard for them.
Although its well known that some in the camps perpetrated needless brutality, I've oft thought that aside those thugs the real villains , viz, those that instigated , devleloped and created the camps should have been the true and main targets of post war criminal justice. Many of the "minnows" who ended up working in the camps would have ended up there for reasons beyond their control and could find themselves in a very tricky position if objecting, especially if they had family,.
As for the time scale, any witnesses at any trial nowadays are going to be very elderly,thus the reliability of statements made can easily be cast into doubt. Tricky, to be honest, certainly mixed feelings on my part.
Digga said:
I don't think those on the front or in the skies were necessarily all aware of exactly what was going on in the concentration camps - remember the Allies were shocked when they found them. But a senior official within the camps -he must have known, in fact could not have failed to be aware. That was not war, that was genocide and there can be no statute of limitations on a crime of that magnitude.
If this chap was a senior official in the camps, then that's very different. Those who were architects of the whole thing should answer for their actions, on that I agree.But he wasn't a senior official. He was a 21 year old glorified clerk, who sat in a back room counting money and putting it in ledgers. All in, pretty far removed from the sharp end of the atrocities. He actually gave a BBC interview a few years ago about what he saw and what he heard, and how it affected him for the rest of his life.
Seeing as it was us British that invented concentration camps (the Boer war) should we have prosecuted those who staffed them back in the 1940's when we began prosecuting Nazis? After all, the Boer war finished 60 years prior, there would still have been some soldiers, or clerks, around that were there.
As I said, there are some guys you go after, and rightly so, but this is a nonsense last ditch show trial to appease a vocal, well funded group of pressure interests. All IMHO obviously.
55palfers said:
Not condoning the evil of the Nazis, but a 93 year old pen pusher?
Read the article, get a clue:NBC News said:
German prosecutors allege that Groening was responsible for dealing with the belongings and money stolen from camp victims, which is why he has often been referred to as "the accountant of Auschwitz" in the German media.
There may well be witnesses who have a very different POV of who or what this man is. It is not up to us to decide but for the law to hear the case.Hainey said:
speedy_thrills said:
Hainey said:
Seeing as it was us British that invented concentration camps (the Boer war)...
I thought it was the Spanish in Cuba?Hainey said:
Grumfutock said:
pointless and politically motivated measure. Ridiculous.
Agree 100%. He was part of the war machine. Same as those who fought on the front or in the skies, or those in reserved occupations who dug the coal or baked the bread. It's called collective responsibility. Unless you were a registered conscientious objector, you are all equal in facilitating that war effort.This trial serves no purpose other than to keep certain vocal pressure groups happy. It's ridiculous and petty IMHO.
He is guilty of the crimes but why prosecute now? Why go after very small, low level people 70 years after the events?
To my mind Germany is trying to atone for now prosecuting the guilty in the 50's and for handing down pathetic sentences when they did. Far to little, far to late!
As for all combatants being some how guilty of mass genocide? Take yourself outside for a word!
Hainey said:
speedy_thrills said:
Hainey said:
Seeing as it was us British that invented concentration camps (the Boer war)...
I thought it was the Spanish in Cuba?Did anyone prosecute or go after the catholic church when, AIUI, they shoved a load of people on a boat to South America?
That's a genuine question BTW I wouldn't claim to know masses of history but I'm fairly sure they did some pretty shameful stuff.
As for this chap, I really don't know, OK 70 years later what does it achieve and did he really have the option to simply hand in his notice and leave?
On the other hand, what are you supposed to do simply say "Oh OK mate it's in the past let's not worry about it"?
That's a genuine question BTW I wouldn't claim to know masses of history but I'm fairly sure they did some pretty shameful stuff.
As for this chap, I really don't know, OK 70 years later what does it achieve and did he really have the option to simply hand in his notice and leave?
On the other hand, what are you supposed to do simply say "Oh OK mate it's in the past let's not worry about it"?
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: Did anyone prosecute or go after the catholic church when, AIUI, they shoved a load of people on a boat to South America?
That's a genuine question BTW I wouldn't claim to know masses of history but I'm fairly sure they did some pretty shameful stuff.
As for this chap, I really don't know, OK 70 years later what does it achieve and did he really have the option to simply hand in his notice and leave?
On the other hand, what are you supposed to do simply say "Oh OK mate it's in the past let's not worry about it"?
Some in Rome were complicit with helping war criminals escape to safety. Bishop Hudal is a prime candidate who helped, amongst others, Franz Stangl. He was the ex camp commandant of Treblinka and Sobibor. That's a genuine question BTW I wouldn't claim to know masses of history but I'm fairly sure they did some pretty shameful stuff.
As for this chap, I really don't know, OK 70 years later what does it achieve and did he really have the option to simply hand in his notice and leave?
On the other hand, what are you supposed to do simply say "Oh OK mate it's in the past let's not worry about it"?
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