Is England shifting ever leftward?
Discussion
longblackcoat said:
Mark Benson said:
I think the Ed and Fish show will limp on for the full term, or close to it. Never underestimate the desire of politicians to cling onto power, especially if they know they'll lose the power next time out.
Fixed term makes it far more likely they'll muddle along, taxing everything they can find to pay forScotland ever more 'Progressive' (a weasel word for 'socialist') policies, knowing that the next Tory government will have to spend a lot of it's time unravelling them and 'savagely' cutting back in order to sort out the mess once again.
Except that there are some genuinely unbridgeable policy gaps, and I can see no way that there'll be a formal alliance. The informality makes it far more likely that it will break, though I absolutely take your point about the desire to hang onto the reins of power at any cost.Fixed term makes it far more likely they'll muddle along, taxing everything they can find to pay for
My guess is, if no coalitions are formed, whoever forms the minority will be held to ransom by the rest of the house and have to forge alliances policy by policy.
The only glimmer of hope in that is that far less would be done by a minority government as they would struggle to get support every time they wanted to pass anything and the fewer new laws any government passes, the better off we all are
Edited by Mark Benson on Thursday 23 April 09:27
MGJohn said:
What puzzles me watching media smoothies interviewing folks in the street, must have seen approaching a hundred such now, without exception many appear to be in some sort of denial. Maybe do not understand the appalling negative magnitude of the Nation's current financial status and such things as the Trade Deficit. It's as though such massively negative impacts do not exist, or, if they do, has little effect on them.
A few dips into my Facebook contacts again show these problems are of little concern to many particularly the younger folks. I'm convinced some actually believe those money trees exist!
Not just Public Sector types, many of those express they understand the need for cuts just as long as they do not affect them. Even conservative minded folks who appear unworried just as long as being in the EU means their next new BMW or other European product will not be more expensive. How good is that for our economy. Of course, not just those me, me, me mindset types, I can understand some business folks having concerns should the Nation ever get the chance to vote on In-Out of the EU, it's very unlikely an OUT decision will come about. It's as though many believe the Nation would be incapable of surviving outside the EU. Maybe they're right and we no longer are collectively made of the right stuff. I do not believe that but, that could be the case in reality.
I think social media has and is continuing to have massive influence on how a wide range of folks see or do nit see things.
Even the three main Political Parties do not have these serious aspects high on their list of messages to the electorate.
Whatever the result in two weeks time, I strongly suspect that once again, this Nation will get it wrong. So depressing.
i think it all comes down to the fact, despite all talk of austerity,the tough times we are going through/have gone through, the vast majority of people that have not lost or had to change jobs have seen no great change in their daily lives or finances ,whether positive or negative.A few dips into my Facebook contacts again show these problems are of little concern to many particularly the younger folks. I'm convinced some actually believe those money trees exist!
Not just Public Sector types, many of those express they understand the need for cuts just as long as they do not affect them. Even conservative minded folks who appear unworried just as long as being in the EU means their next new BMW or other European product will not be more expensive. How good is that for our economy. Of course, not just those me, me, me mindset types, I can understand some business folks having concerns should the Nation ever get the chance to vote on In-Out of the EU, it's very unlikely an OUT decision will come about. It's as though many believe the Nation would be incapable of surviving outside the EU. Maybe they're right and we no longer are collectively made of the right stuff. I do not believe that but, that could be the case in reality.
I think social media has and is continuing to have massive influence on how a wide range of folks see or do nit see things.
Even the three main Political Parties do not have these serious aspects high on their list of messages to the electorate.
Whatever the result in two weeks time, I strongly suspect that once again, this Nation will get it wrong. So depressing.
they feel they have no major cause for concern.
the issues that have brought ukip to the fore will not magically go away during the next parliament as none of the parties likely to be in power have any meaningful plans to deal with them .five years of more of the same may however force the issue come the next election,particularly as there may have been significant change in the finances of the eu by then. the small matter of immigration running at 300k per annum plus for the next 5 years will also have an effect.
handpaper said:
The left has spent decades forcing its values into the everyday language of politics, to the extent that a Conservative PM boasts about the "progressive" nature of his Government's policies. That the leader of a nominally right-wing party should use a term and appear to embrace an ideology originally Communist is an illustration of the degree to which mainstream political thought has become homogenised.
The meanings of some originally simple words appear to have been altered, too. Systems that take money from people only to return it if they beg in just the right way are trumpeted as "fair"; treatment that differs according to someone's age, gender, ethnicity, or religion is hailed as "equal".
Other concepts attract modifiers; notably "social".
Justice is one of these, a simple word meaning "that which is deserved". What, then, does "social justice" mean? "Social" in this term, must modify "justice", so "social justice" must mean "that which is not deserved". I'm not sure how this could be regarded positively.
Tellingly, such things are also described as "progressive".
I agree.The meanings of some originally simple words appear to have been altered, too. Systems that take money from people only to return it if they beg in just the right way are trumpeted as "fair"; treatment that differs according to someone's age, gender, ethnicity, or religion is hailed as "equal".
Other concepts attract modifiers; notably "social".
Justice is one of these, a simple word meaning "that which is deserved". What, then, does "social justice" mean? "Social" in this term, must modify "justice", so "social justice" must mean "that which is not deserved". I'm not sure how this could be regarded positively.
Tellingly, such things are also described as "progressive".
The country may actually be more 'right' than the main stream media projects, but whilst they (the media) pander to the slightest outpouring from any chosen pressure group and react with horror at what were once mainstream opinions, it's hard to see the 'received opinion' changing.
Consider the venom with which Sturgeon/Salmond or Toynbee refers to the Tories, let alone how they project UKIP (even Cameron and his 'swivel-eyed loon' reference)...it's quite unpleasant.
But we're not alone. Look at the USA enabling socialised healthcare, the POTUS talking down capitalist values, and being equivocal about free speech.
We live in interesting times.
The fact of the matter is England is getting more and more centralised rather than left and right and all for the better.
Compare Labour and Conservatives now to how they were in the 1970's. It's a bit like Animal farm now, the pigs are looking like farmers. Which is actually a compliment as politics to either left or right is bad news.
There's a lot of right wing people on PH, so this thread title is to be expected, a right wing person sees reds under the beds at the slightest chance, even though that is not the case.
So in answer, no.
Compare Labour and Conservatives now to how they were in the 1970's. It's a bit like Animal farm now, the pigs are looking like farmers. Which is actually a compliment as politics to either left or right is bad news.
There's a lot of right wing people on PH, so this thread title is to be expected, a right wing person sees reds under the beds at the slightest chance, even though that is not the case.
So in answer, no.
Halb said:
FredClogs said:
Take a look - see which of the worlds economies run a surplus or low deficits, see how those countries are run and managed (Gulf oil states aside), see what their tax burden is. Then compare with our system of loading people up with debt whilst the wealthy sail away into the sunset.
YOu got a list, or a link or something?There's a list of countries ranked by budget deficit. Take a gander
FredClogs said:
Halb said:
FredClogs said:
Take a look - see which of the worlds economies run a surplus or low deficits, see how those countries are run and managed (Gulf oil states aside), see what their tax burden is. Then compare with our system of loading people up with debt whilst the wealthy sail away into the sunset.
YOu got a list, or a link or something?There's a list of countries ranked by budget deficit. Take a gander
k out of Libya has seen us climb the charts one place.The Don of Croy said:
handpaper said:
The left has spent decades forcing its values into the everyday language of politics, to the extent that a Conservative PM boasts about the "progressive" nature of his Government's policies. That the leader of a nominally right-wing party should use a term and appear to embrace an ideology originally Communist is an illustration of the degree to which mainstream political thought has become homogenised.
The meanings of some originally simple words appear to have been altered, too. Systems that take money from people only to return it if they beg in just the right way are trumpeted as "fair"; treatment that differs according to someone's age, gender, ethnicity, or religion is hailed as "equal".
Other concepts attract modifiers; notably "social".
Justice is one of these, a simple word meaning "that which is deserved". What, then, does "social justice" mean? "Social" in this term, must modify "justice", so "social justice" must mean "that which is not deserved". I'm not sure how this could be regarded positively.
Tellingly, such things are also described as "progressive".
But we're not alone. Look at the USA enabling socialised healthcare, the POTUS talking down capitalist values, and being equivocal about free speech.The meanings of some originally simple words appear to have been altered, too. Systems that take money from people only to return it if they beg in just the right way are trumpeted as "fair"; treatment that differs according to someone's age, gender, ethnicity, or religion is hailed as "equal".
Other concepts attract modifiers; notably "social".
Justice is one of these, a simple word meaning "that which is deserved". What, then, does "social justice" mean? "Social" in this term, must modify "justice", so "social justice" must mean "that which is not deserved". I'm not sure how this could be regarded positively.
Tellingly, such things are also described as "progressive".
Reagan and Bush Jnr, great capitalists considering how much debt they got into
That much wasn't really in doubt, was it?
Now all sorts of claims will be made, though.
It will obviously be that the Tories have moved left, or obviously be that the public have simply rejected Labour's socialism (quoting a PHer this morning!), and never that there simply is no credible, meaningful left to vote for.
Even if you gave a st, who can remember anything about Labour's actual pledges? In fact, anything, apart from a big stone plaque and a visit to Russell Brand's house. Who even knows what direction they are?
Then again I suppose if you judge the centre of English politics to be the middle ground between the largest contemporary parties, and thus the left to be in relation to that, stubbornly ignoring all history and the rest of the world, then you might be technically correct.
Now all sorts of claims will be made, though.
It will obviously be that the Tories have moved left, or obviously be that the public have simply rejected Labour's socialism (quoting a PHer this morning!), and never that there simply is no credible, meaningful left to vote for.
Even if you gave a s
t, who can remember anything about Labour's actual pledges? In fact, anything, apart from a big stone plaque and a visit to Russell Brand's house. Who even knows what direction they are?Then again I suppose if you judge the centre of English politics to be the middle ground between the largest contemporary parties, and thus the left to be in relation to that, stubbornly ignoring all history and the rest of the world, then you might be technically correct.
wc98 said:
i think it all comes down to the fact, despite all talk of austerity,the tough times we are going through/have gone through, the vast majority of people that have not lost or had to change jobs have seen no great change in their daily lives or finances ,whether positive or negative.
they feel they have no major cause for concern.
The issues that have brought ukip to the fore will not magically go away during the next parliament as none of the parties likely to be in power have any meaningful plans to deal with them. Five years or more of the same may however force the issue come the next election,particularly as there may have been significant change in the finances of the eu by then. The small matter of immigration running at 300k per annum plus for the next 5 years will also have an effect.
I accuse you of looking at the longer term. Poor form wc98. Stop it at once. It is not necessary.they feel they have no major cause for concern.
The issues that have brought ukip to the fore will not magically go away during the next parliament as none of the parties likely to be in power have any meaningful plans to deal with them. Five years or more of the same may however force the issue come the next election,particularly as there may have been significant change in the finances of the eu by then. The small matter of immigration running at 300k per annum plus for the next 5 years will also have an effect.
Poor choice of the word small by the way.
You heard it hear last.
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