Is England shifting ever leftward?

[Digga]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

nadger said:

Personally I would argue that the nation is moving to the right, as evidenced by the rise of UKIP.

Absolutely.

And yet not all of their policies are typically "right wing".

They have an agenda to remove taxation from NMW for example. They are very pro-NHS.

[powerstroke]

nadger said:

Personally I would argue that the nation is moving to the right, as evidenced by the rise of UKIP.

UKIP right wing ???? Oh I suppose maybe in comparison with the magic money tree fringe parties like the comu sorry green party it is!!

[ClaphamGT3]

McWigglebum4th said:

Don't forget fairness

I love fairness

No idea what fairness is

Never met anyone who can tell me what fairness is


But i suspect


Fairness is me getting up at 06:00 getting to work at 07:00 working my ass off getting home at 18:00 and then giving most of half of my wages to the state so others can watch daytime telly

But, according to that punchable, cretinous, droning weasel Milliband this morning, your shoulders are broadest so it is 'fair' that you should bear more of the burden

[anonymous-user]

speedy_thrills said:

Greg66 said:

Conventional wisdom says that low unemployment, a stable and growing economy and recovery signs should see the Cons or the Coalition as a shoe-in. But that's not happening. Is it because England - or at least a voting majority of it - has acquired a taste for a lifestyle that can be provided at someone else's expense? And if so, how does any vaguely right of centre party reverse that trend (and no, the answer is not as simple as "vote UKIP", any more than it is "Vote Conservative")?

I think employment is only a partial read on the economic situation. The price for employment has been inflation adjusted wages falling and most economic gains have went to a very small proportion of society. Overall your average British worker is still worse off than they would have been in 2007.

So, in response to your first question, set against that economic backdrop described above people are voting and I think the public view of wealth redistribution is that it's essential to an economically prosperous country. Ed Miliband and Labour are not so astute but the public mood has been swinging towards policies labour have historically championed. Similarly SNP in Scotland. For your average bloke on the street Conservatives policies have been very difficult to swallow (dropping the top tax rate, VAT increases etc.)

The second part of your question pertained to how conservatives can win support. I'd say think about improving the quality of living for ordinary working people probably making about 150-350 quid a week.

Do we think people in this bracket are likely to see themselves as getting a 'fair deal' in society currently or in the near future? When you think about the economic circumstances a lot of ordinary people find themselves in I'm surprised how pro-liberal capitalism the UK is really. One of the biggest changes I'd like to see is no more excuses about a rising tides eventually lifting all boats.

Even if what you say were true it is naive in the extreme to think anyone would have been better off over recent years, or in years to come, with labour at the helm.

They lost control once, after putting the country in a position where there was no room for error, and they'll do it again.

And it will go wrong again, just like it always does with them.

[Esseesse]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

nadger said:

Personally I would argue that the nation is moving to the right, as evidenced by the rise of UKIP.

Absolutely.

Absolutely not. The Conservative have run away from the right, especially socially. That UKIP exist shows that right leaning voters still exist, however recently even they have been moving a little to the left in order to cast their net a little wider.

[Esseesse]

Colonial said:

Economically perhaps. Socially it is shifting to the right.

In what way? If we were moving socially to the right surely...

• We wouldn't be introducing gay marriage.
• We would be increasingly supporting traditional marriage (and frowning at 'alternative' arrangements, especially for children).
• We would not be generally pro-abortion.
• We would not have record levels of migration (with plenty of support).
• We would not be handing out increasing amounts of state funding for child day care.
• We would not be increasingly lax about the kinds and content of media that children can access.
• We wouldn't be so easy going about the amount of sex & drug information given to children in schools.
• We would be increasingly religious.
• We would not be discussing legalising drugs.

[anonymous-user]

I expect internationally, the UK is a left wing looking country with its welfare state, NHS, high taxation, free schooling etc.

Despite people trying to paint the left as a Stalinist movement, there's not much difference between the main UK parties as they both fight to occupy the central and central left ground of UK politics.

[Esseesse]

el stovey said:

Despite people trying to paint the left as a Stalinist movement, there's not much difference between the main UK parties as they both fight to occupy the central and central left ground of UK politics.

Indeed there's not much difference, hence why so many feel betrayed by the Conservative party. The centre and centre-left IS nowadays on the left, and the centre-right is the same as the centre-left.

[Einion Yrth]

MarshPhantom said:

Green and Lib Dem voters the most intelligent,

Yeah, 'course they are.

[trashbat]

There's quite some amazing groupthink going on here.

There is no credible 'left wing' or rather progressive force in English politics. Labour have ceased to be it. On the face of it, the SNP appears to be that to some degree in Scotland, but I'm not Scottish.

If you think the UK is economically left leaning, you must be completely blind to history. An increasing gap between rich & poor, austerity, increasing privatisation, reducing taxation and so on - decades of neoliberalism of differing brand but similar substance. Not to mention the emergence of UKIP who someone just tried to claim aren't right wing. Are you drunk?

FWIW I agree with Esseesse that there is a menu of socially progressive developments, with the exception of immigration, which I think is much more economically-driven than social. There are regressive counterpoints to be made to that, of course, but probably overall the balance is socially leftward. Two questions I would ask (with no specific answer in mind) are: one, if those things hadn't happened, what likelihood that the current political parties would have introduced them today? and two, to what degree is Britain reacting to wider international standards rather than leading the way? e.g. it wasn't the first to introduce gay marriage by any means, although it was early.

However you said:

Esseesse said:

The centre and centre-left IS nowadays on the left, and the centre-right is the same as the centre-left.

And yet I think you could swap around left & right in that sentence. Regardless it is all very much tightly grouped around a centrist position, not least thanks to Blair and his third way.

Of course the point should be that a one-dimensional indicator is not a very good one. Right vs left doesn't tell you anything about authoritarian vs libertarian, or economic conservatism vs social conservatism.

[W124]

Politically we drift left. Socially we drift right. An appalling prospect. IMHO the hoard are among us, the library burns, the city is lost. We are a hard working nation and, sadly, this has been used against us. For myself - my ex-wife's reckless irresponsibility compels me to build up my business enough to get it into a state where my kids, both able, can run it. And to look after them both full time as I do so. As soon as they can run the thing I'm off. I don't recognise this country any more. It's not immigration that bothers me. It's our descent into mindless consumerism. The previous shower and the coalition's rewarding of the financially irresponsible (both personally and in a corporate sense) is a narrative with only one ending and I'd rather not be here when it happens.

[paranoid airbag]

Digga said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

nadger said:

Personally I would argue that the nation is moving to the right, as evidenced by the rise of UKIP.

Absolutely.

And yet not all of their policies are typically "right wing".

They have an agenda to remove taxation from NMW for example. They are very pro-NHS.

Don't forget the "luxury tax" (which admittedly, I believe Farage swiftly backtracked on - itself an argument for why the media crucifixion of anyone who backtracks is stupid). And I'm not convinced at all that they hate nanny state regulations.

More to the point: "stop immigrants stealing our jobs" is the most left-wing economic policy I can possibly think of short of actual communism. It's the very antithesis of a free market, in probably the most important market there is.

[rover 623gsi]

I don't think that the overall balance between left and right has changed very much over the years -

Election results
1979 43.9%
1983 42.4%
1987 42.2%
1992 41.9%

in 1997 the vote of the 'right' fell and hasn't fully recovered but it's not a huge leap to suggest that most UKIP voters are nearer to the Conservatives than Labour

Latest poll puts combined Cons + UKIP on 45%

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/20/to...

What the Tories need is someone that can unite all factions of their party

Edited by rover 623gsi on Tuesday 21st April 10:14

[speedy_thrills]

REALIST123 said:

Even if what you say were true it is naive in the extreme to think anyone would have been better off over recent years, or in years to come, with labour at the helm.

I agree but that's not how politics works. After all over the last few years central banks have really been the major driving force ensuring economic stability but politicians don't share a lot of credit for their work.

It was probably desperately naive of the public to assume the Conservatives could bring economic growth, though the public didn't vote for the Conservatives so much as against Labour/Brown. In fact they delivered no clear mandate for anything hence the coalition government.

REALIST123 said:

They lost control once, after putting the country in a position where there was no room for error, and they'll do it again.

Well the global financial crisis worked against Labour in 2010 (the Conservatives actually gained little on 2005), no one really had the level of foresight (in either party) to predict future events.

However the thing about luck is that it's random so the Conservatives got stuck in a period of economic stagnation which was a global event beyond their control as well. Hence rapidly increasing in national debt in the last five years (at least in nominal terms).

REALIST123 said:

And it will go wrong again, just like it always does with them.

It goes wrong for everyone, that's the nature of random events. We will likely have a financial crash in the next 10 years regardless of governments or economic policies and may well blame it on the government in power. Is it their fault? Probably not. Will they be able to survive? Perhaps...perhaps not.

A good degree of luck appears to be a key element in running a successful government as neither party are likely to influence global economic events. Most of what they can do is managing the fallout and blaming everyone else for their misfortunes.

[IainT]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

nadger said:

Personally I would argue that the nation is moving to the right, as evidenced by the rise of UKIP.

Absolutely.

But UKIP a party with wholly right or left policies. Their policies in some areas are very right-wing, in others very left-wing and centrist in others. The cynic will say they pander to easy vote winning policies rather than coherence, their supporters would argue that they're not bound by conventional demarcation and form a coherent strategy around what's correct for each situation.

I find some UKIP policy agreeable and some disagreeable and taken as a whole they're not the party for me. I agree more with Labour social policy but favour Conservative economic policy. Understanding that we can't afford the Labour social policies without the Conservative economic policies will see me voting Tory in May as my constituency is a seat up for grabs by either side. UKIP, even if they massively outperform expectations, will only ever be 3rd here even if I could vote for them.

[Digga]

paranoid airbag said:

And I'm not convinced at all that they hate nanny state regulations.

They are certainly for smaller government and there are several items in their manifesto which deal with this, not least tackling local authority remuneration (which is, frankly, a joke and in need of attention).

[iphonedyou]

rover 623gsi said:

I don't think that the overall balance between left and right has changed very much over the years -

Election results
1979 43.9%
1983 42.4%
1987 42.2%
1992 41.9%

in 1997 the vote of the 'right' fell and hasn't fully recovered but it's not a huge leap to suggest that most UKIP voters are nearer to the Conservatives than Labour

Latest poll puts combined Cons + UKIP on 45%

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/20/to...

What the Tories need is someone that can unite all factions of their party

Edited by rover 623gsi on Tuesday 21st April 10:14

Does that take into account the shifting sands of what's considered left and right wing, though?

I'd agree the country as a whole is moving inexorably left, sadly.

[speedy_thrills]

trashbat said:

If you think the UK is economically left leaning, you must be completely blind to history. An increasing gap between rich & poor, austerity, increasing privatisation, reducing taxation and so on - decades of neoliberalism of differing brand but similar substance.

W124 said:

...our descent into mindless consumerism.

You've struck on an interesting idea there, should governments success be measure in income growth or happiness? This is a question a lot more people are asking as we become more economically developed. In the past you might have said perhaps the two where analogues but I think more people are starting to ask what is important in their lives.

[MarshPhantom]

Einion Yrth said:

MarshPhantom said:

Green and Lib Dem voters the most intelligent,

Yeah, 'course they are.

You're right. The survey is a bit of date so a lot of those clever Lib Dems will now be voting Labour.

[Timmy40]

speedy_thrills said:

This is a question a lot more people are asking as we become more economically developed. In the past you might have said perhaps the two where analogues but I think more people are starting to ask what is important in their lives.

I think this is a very good point, it irritates me when the media seems obsessed with wealth inequality, and poverty when both are defined as comparing one persons income with another. Poverty and wealth are more than just money. I grew up in what a socialist would define as abject poverty.....but we were far far happier than a I think a lot of people with more money. Socialists seem oddly obsessed with money as the cure for everything....given they claim not to care about money.