Benefits of being in/out of the EU?

[CuckooInMyNest]

Before I decide how to vote can anyone explain in simple terms:

a) What are the benefits of leaving the EU?

b) What are the benefits of remaining in the EU?

[Eric Mc]

Out-

more autonomy over national legislation
more autonomy over immigration
restriction on ability to buy and own land/property/businesses etc in other EU countries
more freedom to negotiate trade deals with other countries
restriction on ability to live and work in other EU countries
Increased likelihood of cross border tariffs
Becoming a small and isolated trading nation
Being less attractive to non-EU businesses that want access to EU markets


In -

No restrictions on emigration to other EU states
No or limited restrictions on ability to buy and own land/property/businesses etc in other EU countries
Freedom of movement between other EU countries
Access (within limits) to health services ion other EU countries
Freedom from cross border tariffs
Being part of a large global trading block
Being more attractive to non-EU businesses that want access to EU markets

I'm sure there are loads more

[Bluebarge]

(a) you get to implement only 90% of EU legislation if you want to trade in the EU; you don't have to visit Granny in Spain anymore as she will have been shipped back along with another 1.5m old giffers who've retired abroad and are placing a massive strain on European health services; you don't have to listen to Nigel Farage anymore as he will have no more reason to exist.
(b) freedom of movement across the EU - you can work, study or live anywhere across the member states; no tariff/customs barriers - you can trade anywhere in the EU on a level playing field; you get to shape EU legislation that will apply to you anyway; your multinational employer will not leave the UK because it is no longer in the Single Market thereby pitching the country into a recession.

Basically, it's a re-run of the in/out arguments for Scottish independence, if you managed to stay awake long enough to listen to those during the referendum.

Cue lots of UKIP misty-eyed nostalgia about when Britain was great and not tied down by foreign obligations (i.e. never) and blind optimsim about a post-EU future, where all of Europe will be nice to us even though we've just told them to fk off

[Timmy40]

In - Cost of £7.5bn a year.

Out - Saving of £7.5bn a year.

As the 2nd largest economy in Europe I doubt very much whether being out would lead to any decrease in trade with the EU block.

[Bluebarge]

Timmy40 said:

As the 2nd largest economy in Europe I doubt very much whether being out would lead to any decrease in trade with the EU block.

It would if significant elements of that trade up sticks and move into the Single Market.

[arguti]

I think the politicians like it to be portrayed as and "in or out" decision to frighten the electorate into voting to stay in the EU whereas the real question should be what are the consequences of the UK changing membership status from EU to EEA.

In my mind, EEA members seem to have most of the EU benefits without some of the nonsense.

[speedy_thrills]

CuckooInMyNest said:

Before I decide how to vote can anyone explain in simple terms:

a) What are the benefits of leaving the EU?

More control over some aspects of policy (immigration is usually the one most cited) as, being a union, we agreed to some degree of harmonisation.

CuckooInMyNest said:

b) What are the benefits of remaining in the EU?

Access to markets both directly in the EU as well as favourable EU Free Trade Agreements (FTAs) and ability to work and travel within to the Schengen area.

This is actually very complex in part because no one knows what the UK would look like outside of EU membership. A lot of the most important footwork (like renegotiating FTAs) has yet to begin or be discussed with international trade partners. Realistically it's a long road to EU exit (i.e. covering the span of successive governments) so the UK would probably require all major parties to reach a consensus on the future of EU membership.

[CuckooInMyNest]

Bluebarge said:

your multinational employer will not leave the UK because it is no longer in the Single Market thereby pitching the country into a recession.

Ok thanks for the answers, that helps a lot.

I have no desire to live/work/study/buy property in Europe.

The only bit that bothers me is this recession idea, you think that's pretty much guaranteed?

[CuckooInMyNest]

speedy_thrills said:

CuckooInMyNest said:

Before I decide how to vote can anyone explain in simple terms:

a) What are the benefits of leaving the EU?

More control over some aspects of policy (immigration is usually the one most cited) as, being a union, we agreed to some degree of harmonisation.

CuckooInMyNest said:

b) What are the benefits of remaining in the EU?

Access to markets both directly in the EU as well as favourable EU Free Trade Agreements (FTAs) and ability to work and travel within to the Schengen area.

This is actually very complex in part because no one knows what the UK would look like outside of EU membership. A lot of the most important footwork (like renegotiating FTAs) has yet to begin or be discussed with international trade partners. Realistically it's a long road to EU exit (i.e. covering the span of successive governments) so the UK would probably require all major parties to reach a consensus on the future of EU membership.

Thank you.

[ralphrj]

arguti said:

In my mind, EEA members seem to have most of the EU benefits without some of the nonsense.

Do they though?

EEA members have the same "four freedoms" as EU members, namely free movement of goods, services, people and capital. So the same trade benefits but also the same immigration issues.

EEA members have to pay to access the EFTA. Their contributions have increased by 1000% over the last 11 years. I suspect the cost to the UK would be less than our current contributions to the EU but not by much (still £billions each year). However, we would no longer have any say in how the EU is run (no MEPs or Commissioners).

EEA members must implement EU laws on social policy, consumer protection, environment, company law and statistics. So no freedom from "laws from Brussels".

However, we would be outside of the common agricultural policy and common fisheries policy.

[Timmy40]

Also In - by 2020 we will have the Euro as a currency and the Bundesbank setting our macro economic policy ( haven't they done well of late ).

Out - we continue to set our own interest rates and manage our own national debt/currency....something which has just saved us from the mess the rest of the EU is in.

[Maxf]

Timmy40 said:

Also In - by 2020 we will have the Euro as a currency and the Bundesbank setting our macro economic policy.

Is that true?

[speedy_thrills]

Timmy40 said:

Also In - by 2020 we will have the Euro as a currency and the Bundesbank setting our macro economic policy ( haven't they done well of late ).

I did some research on this but could not find any more than an opinion segment in The Telegraph which...did not rely heavily on factual information to derive an opinion. What is your source on this?

There is nothing I can find suggesting the UK would be compelled to join at any point.

[rohrl]

Maxf said:

Timmy40 said:

Also In - by 2020 we will have the Euro as a currency and the Bundesbank setting our macro economic policy.

Is that true?

Of course it isn't true.

[Bluebarge]

Maxf said:

Timmy40 said:

Also In - by 2020 we will have the Euro as a currency and the Bundesbank setting our macro economic policy.

Is that true?

No it's complete bks. EU recognises that certain member states (UK, Denmark, Sweden) don't want the Euro and are happy with a two (or several) speed Europe. By 2020 some countries may have dropped out of the Euro that are in it now.

[DrDeAtH]

Old documentary, but worth a watch...

https://youtu.be/vv5O_Gq30ow

[ralphrj]

Maxf said:

Timmy40 said:

Also In - by 2020 we will have the Euro as a currency and the Bundesbank setting our macro economic policy.

Is that true?

No.

The Maastricht Treaty contains an "opt-out" which allows the UK to remain outside the Euro. The UK cannot be forced into it.

There are 5 criteria that must be met before a country can join the Euro (yes, I know Greece didn't) and we only meet 2 of them.

The European Union Act 2011 prevents any UK government from joining the Euro without first winning a UK wide referendum. The most recent opinion poll suggested only 6% of the UK population would support joining the Euro.

[Bluebarge]

CuckooInMyNest said:

I have no desire to live/work/study/buy property in Europe.

The only bit that bothers me is this recession idea, you think that's pretty much guaranteed?

What? not even a retirement property or a B&B business in the sun? where's your ambition?

Recession - IMHO - yes - a significant outflow of important jobs would surely follow an exit and inward investment would drop considerably until it became clear on what tersm the UK could trade with the EU and whether those terms would be favourable (which they may not).

This is what the smart money thinks
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/ba...

[speedy_thrills]

Bluebarge said:

Recession - IMHO - yes - a significant outflow of important jobs would surely follow an exit and inward investment would drop considerably until it became clear on what tersm the UK could trade with the EU and whether those terms would be favourable (which they may not).

In defence of an exit plan I think by the time the UK was ready to exit many of those unknowns would be known. It may be a decade or more before we even get all the FTAs in place so it would likely be a very lengthy process rather than a 'big bang'. A lot of businesses are interdependent so even a simple question such as if BAe can continue to work with Airbus is uncertain until negotiations have taken place.

Surprisingly there isn't actually much in UKIP promotional materials about how the UK would go about exiting its position or what could be retained. So my answer is we don't know about economic impact with any certainty, that would be one of the foremost things to establish before a referendum I expect (talking to all our international partners about what they'd be likely to offer and how they'd behave).

[Hooli]

In it costs us billions for no reward.
Out it doesn't cost us billions & we have more control of our own country.