Benefits of being in/out of the EU?
Discussion
Bluebarge said:
Why are you shouting?
I also trade in the UK, I run a small business. My clients are big and small - some trade with the EU, some trade in the EU and abroad, some are just UK. Their opinions on the EU depend on the extent of their exposure to it. Those who trade with the EU appreciate the flexibility the Single Market gives them. Most of the regulation affecting small business in the UK comes from Westminster, not the EU. EU regulation that does apply is designed to creat a level playing field across the EU, so that your products can't be refused enry to Germany, for example, because the labelling does not comply with German law - the law is the same across the EU, so everyone can compete without requiring legal or technical advice from every country in which they want to export. Why is that so hard to understand?
What EU law directly affects you that you find difficult, and what do you think the UK govt would abolish if it left the EU?
The biggest burden on small business is employment law, and the extent to which the balance is tipped towards the employee with endless leave entitlements etc. That is entirely home-grown legislation - nothing to do with Brussels.
Not sure u serious?I also trade in the UK, I run a small business. My clients are big and small - some trade with the EU, some trade in the EU and abroad, some are just UK. Their opinions on the EU depend on the extent of their exposure to it. Those who trade with the EU appreciate the flexibility the Single Market gives them. Most of the regulation affecting small business in the UK comes from Westminster, not the EU. EU regulation that does apply is designed to creat a level playing field across the EU, so that your products can't be refused enry to Germany, for example, because the labelling does not comply with German law - the law is the same across the EU, so everyone can compete without requiring legal or technical advice from every country in which they want to export. Why is that so hard to understand?
What EU law directly affects you that you find difficult, and what do you think the UK govt would abolish if it left the EU?
The biggest burden on small business is employment law, and the extent to which the balance is tipped towards the employee with endless leave entitlements etc. That is entirely home-grown legislation - nothing to do with Brussels.
I can think of half a dozen not least http://ebiz.pwc.com/2013/01/eu-2015-vat-changes-to...
Or for that matter http://www.smallbusiness.co.uk/running-a-business/...
Examples that have hit my particular business space in the last couple of years. That VAT one is especially egregious given that it is a ham fisted attempt to address tax avoidance largely infringed by large scale global operators..
tangerine_sedge said:
I have no red-tape in mind! It's just that people here keep on talking about EU red tape holding back their small businesses. I was trying to understand which EU red tape this specifically was, and how it would differ to any controls placed on their business by a post-exit UK government. From your earlier response, it looks like it's mostly UK employment law, not EU red-tape causing problems.
If anybody would like to give some examples of EU red tape impacting their busineses that would be appreciated?
The Money Laundering restrictions are pretty much EU derived.If anybody would like to give some examples of EU red tape impacting their busineses that would be appreciated?
Much of our VAT law is EU generated.
Having said all that, I am pretty sure that identical or similar legislation would be in place anyway whether we were in or out of the EU.
Ridgemont said:
Bluebarge said:
Why are you shouting?
I also trade in the UK, I run a small business. My clients are big and small - some trade with the EU, some trade in the EU and abroad, some are just UK. Their opinions on the EU depend on the extent of their exposure to it. Those who trade with the EU appreciate the flexibility the Single Market gives them. Most of the regulation affecting small business in the UK comes from Westminster, not the EU. EU regulation that does apply is designed to creat a level playing field across the EU, so that your products can't be refused enry to Germany, for example, because the labelling does not comply with German law - the law is the same across the EU, so everyone can compete without requiring legal or technical advice from every country in which they want to export. Why is that so hard to understand?
What EU law directly affects you that you find difficult, and what do you think the UK govt would abolish if it left the EU?
The biggest burden on small business is employment law, and the extent to which the balance is tipped towards the employee with endless leave entitlements etc. That is entirely home-grown legislation - nothing to do with Brussels.
Not sure u serious?I also trade in the UK, I run a small business. My clients are big and small - some trade with the EU, some trade in the EU and abroad, some are just UK. Their opinions on the EU depend on the extent of their exposure to it. Those who trade with the EU appreciate the flexibility the Single Market gives them. Most of the regulation affecting small business in the UK comes from Westminster, not the EU. EU regulation that does apply is designed to creat a level playing field across the EU, so that your products can't be refused enry to Germany, for example, because the labelling does not comply with German law - the law is the same across the EU, so everyone can compete without requiring legal or technical advice from every country in which they want to export. Why is that so hard to understand?
What EU law directly affects you that you find difficult, and what do you think the UK govt would abolish if it left the EU?
The biggest burden on small business is employment law, and the extent to which the balance is tipped towards the employee with endless leave entitlements etc. That is entirely home-grown legislation - nothing to do with Brussels.
I can think of half a dozen not least http://ebiz.pwc.com/2013/01/eu-2015-vat-changes-to...
Or for that matter http://www.smallbusiness.co.uk/running-a-business/...
Examples that have hit my particular business space in the last couple of years. That VAT one is especially egregious given that it is a ham fisted attempt to address tax avoidance largely infringed by large scale global operators..
If you still think UK legislation would be preferable then may I point you to the UK VAT rules e.g. the "pasty" tax and whether a biscuit is VATable or not, or when a crisp is not a crisp. No-one who has ever dealt with HMRC would think that UK legislation and its implementation would inevitably be more straightforward than dealing with the EU.
Eric Mc said:
The Money Laundering restrictions are pretty much EU derived.
That is now a right, Royal PITA.Last month I remortgaged my house with a bank I'd been doing business with for over 5 years, using a solicitors I'd used for even longer. Both organisations had to insist on me supplying the same, new ID documents as if I were a total stranger. A total time waster for all involved.
Digga said:
European Working Time Directive.
A law brought in to protect peoples health and welfare. Seems reasonable to me.Ridgemont said:
I can imagine that could be an administrative nightmare (having to register for tax in all EU countries in which you do business), but obviously introduced to try and stop businesses basing themselves in low-tax locations and reaping the benefit. In the old system, I assume you just registered for tax once (in the UK). I guess this is good for UK Plc as it stops the race to the lowest tax.Ridgemont said:
A single set of distance selling laws across the EU? Seems more sensible than possibly having different laws for each EU nation you want to sell into.Bluebarge said:
PRTVR said:
Can I ask one of the pro EU people on this thread,
Would they join a club, any club, say a gym, if when you asked how much it was, were told it depends, on things like how much money you make in a particular year, how many hookers you have been with along with your consumption of illegal drugs, it maybe the best club in the world but would you join? Because this is the EU.
Nonsense post of the year.Would they join a club, any club, say a gym, if when you asked how much it was, were told it depends, on things like how much money you make in a particular year, how many hookers you have been with along with your consumption of illegal drugs, it maybe the best club in the world but would you join? Because this is the EU.
Bluebarge said:
But if you didn't have EU legislation on those points, you would have UK legislation and then if you wanted to export to germany (and there were no EU rules on the point), you would have to find out what the German rules were - that's why one set of EU rules is actually simpler for business because they apply across 28 countries.
If you still think UK legislation would be preferable then may I point you to the UK VAT rules e.g. the "pasty" tax and whether a biscuit is VATable or not, or when a crisp is not a crisp. No-one who has ever dealt with HMRC would think that UK legislation and its implementation would inevitably be more straightforward than dealing with the EU.
But there aren't '1 set of rules'. There are multiple standard rates which should be no less than 15% but varies according to locale (27% in Hungary) with opt outs or reduced rates to allow countries to apply 'exemptions' on one or two categories. It's precisely the shuttling of various goods between the exempted categories which creates the pasty tax nonsense, and is a direct result of EU VAT regulation.If you still think UK legislation would be preferable then may I point you to the UK VAT rules e.g. the "pasty" tax and whether a biscuit is VATable or not, or when a crisp is not a crisp. No-one who has ever dealt with HMRC would think that UK legislation and its implementation would inevitably be more straightforward than dealing with the EU.
Digga said:
hat is now a right, Royal PITA.
Last month I remortgaged my house with a bank I'd been doing business with for over 5 years, using a solicitors I'd used for even longer. Both organisations had to insist on me supplying the same, new ID documents as if I were a total stranger. A total time waster for all involved.
I bought a bungalow for my mum last year and I was astonished at the evidence I had to produce to show where I got the money from.Last month I remortgaged my house with a bank I'd been doing business with for over 5 years, using a solicitors I'd used for even longer. Both organisations had to insist on me supplying the same, new ID documents as if I were a total stranger. A total time waster for all involved.
All drug dealers and money launderers must be quaking in their collective boots.
tangerine_sedge said:
Digga said:
European Working Time Directive.
A law brought in to protect peoples health and welfare. Seems reasonable to me.Ridgemont said:
I can imagine that could be an administrative nightmare (having to register for tax in all EU countries in which you do business), but obviously introduced to try and stop businesses basing themselves in low-tax locations and reaping the benefit. In the old system, I assume you just registered for tax once (in the UK). I guess this is good for UK Plc as it stops the race to the lowest tax.Ridgemont said:
A single set of distance selling laws across the EU? Seems more sensible than possibly having different laws for each EU nation you want to sell into.- edit* - just to be clear on that basis we may as well move to a WTO sponsored union. Which isn't so far away from where we actually are with UNECE and the various global standards. Which makes all this nonsense around the EU a complete sideshow.
Edited by Ridgemont on Friday 24th April 14:41
tangerine_sedge said:
I have no red-tape in mind! It's just that people here keep on talking about EU red tape holding back their small businesses. I was trying to understand which EU red tape this specifically was, and how it would differ to any controls placed on their business by a post-exit UK government. From your earlier response, it looks like it's mostly UK employment law, not EU red-tape causing problems.
If anybody would like to give some examples of EU red tape impacting their busineses that would be appreciated?
Have you heard of the WEEE directive? If not, have a Google on it.If anybody would like to give some examples of EU red tape impacting their busineses that would be appreciated?
It is concerned with the safe disposal of electronic equipment.
When the equipmnt comes to the end of its life, the original EU manufacturer, or importer into the EU, must be able to safely disspose of it.
To do this, we need to take two steps. We must register with the government, and we must register with an approved disposal company.
Every year we pay the Environment Agency £475, and also £475 to the disposal company.
So far, this all sounds fairly sensible.
However, over the past 23 years, not a single customer has ever asked u to take anything back for disposal. Not one.
You see, all our own customers already have there own bins/ skips/ whatever.
So, this £950.00 is simply money down the toilet.
The really weird thing is that the WEEE directive came into force after the RoHS directive.
RoHS banned the use of lead(Pb) and other dangerous metals in most electronics. One of our UK suppliers shut down their manufacturing plant, with the loss of 80 jobs. We now import similar equipment from Taiwan.
Digga said:
Here's one, and then you can do your own homework and stop being such a lazy t
t; European Working Time Directive.
I remember working in an investment bank around the time when that bit of legislation came through. A letter was sent to everyone explaining that you could opt out of the 45 hour maximum. And everyone I know did exactly that!t; European Working Time Directive.tangerine_sedge said:
Digga said:
European Working Time Directive.
A law brought in to protect peoples health and welfare. Seems reasonable to me.Ridgemont said:
I can imagine that could be an administrative nightmare (having to register for tax in all EU countries in which you do business), but obviously introduced to try and stop businesses basing themselves in low-tax locations and reaping the benefit. In the old system, I assume you just registered for tax once (in the UK). I guess this is good for UK Plc as it stops the race to the lowest tax.The New Rules
The new EU rules are understandable and consistent between countries, though they are very complex to operate.
The new rules affect retailers supplying electronic services to consumers (B2C). Instead of applying the old national rules, they are required to apply the VAT rate that exists in the country where the consumer is located. So a retailer selling music to consumers in France, Germany, Ireland and the UK will have to apply VAT rates of 20.0%, 19.0%, 23.0% and 20.0% respectively.
This means that:
◾ The retailer needs to be sure of the exact country in which each customer resides (presumably when the order is placed). To prove the right rate has been charged, the retailer needs to demonstrate two evidences of location for every customer.
◾ The precise rate of VAT is applied for each country: there are complexities for products like books, which are standard rated in some countries, given reduced rates or zero-rated, and e-books may be given different rates of VAT from paper books.
◾ The retailer needs to register for VAT. The new Mini One-Stop Shop (MOSS) eliminates the need for retailers to register directly with the tax authorities of 28 different countries, but smaller retailers below the £81,000 UK VAT threshold were probably not charging VAT at all previously. These new rules have brought thousands of small businesses into the VAT system. In the UK smaller retailers have been told that although they are registered via MOSS they will not have to charge VAT on sales in the UK.
The new system is consistent, but is administratively burdensome, with many petty calculations and specific requirements needed to pass the inevitable audits.
The key here is that as a retailer I was below the UK £81,000 threshold. Now I can't. In fact now I have to build in variable local VATs. Nightmare.
BGARK said:
I have not seen anyone here explain the benefits of remaining in the EU as yet, or did I miss that post?
Heres a few.1. Free trade area.
2. Mutual recognition of trading/product standards.
3. Passporting for financial services companies.
4. More controls on would be asylum seekers.
5. Free movement of labour and residency. (there is one restriction guess welcome on where)
6. For many pensioners regulation 883/2004.
Mrr T said:
BGARK said:
I have not seen anyone here explain the benefits of remaining in the EU as yet, or did I miss that post?
Heres a few.1. Free trade area.
2. Mutual recognition of trading/product standards.
3. Passporting for financial services companies.
4. More controls on would be asylum seekers.
5. Free movement of labour and residency. (there is one restriction guess welcome on where)
6. For many pensioners regulation 883/2004.
1) The EU is a Customs Union, not a Free Trade Area: it maintains common external tariffs.
2) Recognition of standards is largely managed at the UNECE level, the EU just adopting most of the UNECE outputs. You could quite happily be a member of the UNECE and adopt 'standards' without being a member of the EU. See Canada and the US.
3) Again - Basel III - without that nonsense of the EU FTT which is a naked power grab at the city.
4) aha. aha. ha.
5) see 4).
6) To be honest the only one I can see may be an issue.
Ridgemont said:
Mrr T said:
BGARK said:
I have not seen anyone here explain the benefits of remaining in the EU as yet, or did I miss that post?
Heres a few.1. Free trade area.
2. Mutual recognition of trading/product standards.
3. Passporting for financial services companies.
4. More controls on would be asylum seekers.
5. Free movement of labour and residency. (there is one restriction guess welcome on where)
6. For many pensioners regulation 883/2004.
1) The EU is a Customs Union, not a Free Trade Area: it maintains common external tariffs.
2) Recognition of standards is largely managed at the UNECE level, the EU just adopting most of the UNECE outputs. You could quite happily be a member of the UNECE and adopt 'standards' without being a member of the EU. See Canada and the US.
3) Again - Basel III - without that nonsense of the EU FTT which is a naked power grab at the city.
4) aha. aha. ha.
5) see 4).
6) To be honest the only one I can see may be an issue.
1. The EU is both a free trade area and a customs union. I regard the FTA as far more important than the customs unions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Customs_union
2. You are talking about standard setting not recognition of standards. In the EU there is agreement to recognise the every other members standard agencies. This means goods will not be checked for standards in other countries. This is not the case for the US and Canada where imported goods have to be approved by the US or Canadian standard authorities.
3. You clearly know nothing about Basel III (for my sins I know far to much). Basel 2 only set the capital framework. Basel 1 dealt with home regulators. However, EU passport goes much further as it allows any financial institution (or product) regulated in an EU country to operate (or be sold) in any other EU country with minimal local supervision.
4. I do not understand the laughter. If we leave the EU we lose a) The Dublin accord (I agree its not much use but that's an ECHR issue) and b) potential the right to base UK passport entry on French soil. Without this we would be over run with asylum seekers.
5. It may not matter to me but some of use like the opportunity to live and work across the EU with minimal restrictions.
Mrr T said:
BGARK said:
I have not seen anyone here explain the benefits of remaining in the EU as yet, or did I miss that post?
Heres a few.1. Free trade area.
2. Mutual recognition of trading/product standards.
3. Passporting for financial services companies.
4. More controls on would be asylum seekers.
5. Free movement of labour and residency. (there is one restriction guess welcome on where)
6. For many pensioners regulation 883/2004.
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